Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
so, sorry.

Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build my
own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)

Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the Lunar
Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)

Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?

Sean Masters

Hi Sean,

A very similar question was asked at the very first space committee
meeting in the House of Commons in London on the 1st May 1980. In that
case, the question was, if Otrag - a German company then testing rockets
in Zaire - built much larger rockets, and the Space Settlers' Society
got the funds together and paid them to send a colony of their members
off to an asteroid rich in valuable resources, and the Settlers then
began to mine and sell those resources, how would the UN Moon Treaty
(the 1979 Treaty - see files) affect this?

The answer given by Professor Bin Cheng, Professor of Aerospace Law at
Imperial College London, was that the Zairan armed forces would have to
go up to space, arrest the lot of us, and bring us back to Earth for
trial!

As you will appreciate, the M.P.s were shocked. This was in the early
days of Maggie Thatcher's government, and the idea that they were being
asked to ratify a Treaty that would forbid capitalism in space was
anathema. As a direct result, the UK, like the US and the Soviet Union,
though for different reasons, did not ratify that Treaty, and
accordingly UK, US and Soviet citizens are not bound by it.

Unfortunately however, the 1967 Treaty implies more or less the same
thing, and we did ratify that one, so we are bound by it. I guess the US
Armed Forces would have to go arrest King Sean and bring him back to
Earth for trial.

Don't you think it is time folk, that we got that 1967 Treaty replaced?

Best wishes, Andy.

smasters@... wrote:

--- In spacesettlers@y..., smasters@g... wrote:
> Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before.
If
> so, sorry.
>
> Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build my
> own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
> colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
>
> Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the
Lunar
> Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)
>
> Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)?
The
> UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
>
> Sean Masters

Any space settlement that is 98% self-sufficient is far more self-
sufficient than any nation on earth. The legal claim to nationhood
of such a settlement would be very strong, particularly if
established by private citizens (freemen) rather than governments.
Precendent has already been set, in the Principality of Sealand:

http://www.sealandgov.com/

:) ed

--- In spacesettlers@y..., andy-nimmo wrote:
> Hi Sean,
>
> A very similar question was asked at the very first space committee
> meeting in the House of Commons in London on the 1st May 1980. In
that
> case, the question was, if Otrag - a German company then testing
rockets
> in Zaire - built much larger rockets, and the Space Settlers'
Society
> got the funds together and paid them to send a colony of their
members
> off to an asteroid rich in valuable resources, and the Settlers then
> began to mine and sell those resources, how would the UN Moon Treaty
> (the 1979 Treaty - see files) affect this?
>
> The answer given by Professor Bin Cheng, Professor of Aerospace Law
at
> Imperial College London, was that the Zairan armed forces would
have to
> go up to space, arrest the lot of us, and bring us back to Earth for
> trial!

The Zairan armed forces? Good luck!

> As you will appreciate, the M.P.s were shocked. This was in the
early
> days of Maggie Thatcher's government, and the idea that they were
being
> asked to ratify a Treaty that would forbid capitalism in space was
> anathema. As a direct result, the UK, like the US and the Soviet
Union,
> though for different reasons, did not ratify that Treaty, and
> accordingly UK, US and Soviet citizens are not bound by it.
>
> Unfortunately however, the 1967 Treaty implies more or less the same
> thing, and we did ratify that one, so we are bound by it. I guess
the US
> Armed Forces would have to go arrest King Sean and bring him back to
> Earth for trial.

Hhhmmmnnn...... Did the Moon Kingdom ratify this? No? Then why
would the Moonan head of state be bound by it?

> Don't you think it is time folk, that we got that 1967 Treaty
replaced?

Yes. I'm working on it. ^_~

> Best wishes, Andy.
>
> smasters@g... wrote:
>
> > Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion
before. If
> > so, sorry.
> >
> > Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build
my
> > own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
> > colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
> >
> > Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the
Lunar
> > Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)
> >
> > Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using
violence)? The
> >
> > UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
> >
> > Sean Masters

Well, if you are claiming to own the entire Moon, you are probably in
violation of international law. Also, if you name yourself soveriegn
of the Moon Kingdom, Neo-Queen Serenity might have sometihng to say.
We'll assume that she and her allies are dead for a while, and ignore
them from here on out. (This happens to them fairly often, so it
isn't much of a stretch.)

I will pretend to give $100 to the first one who can show that they
understood that.

If you are only claiming part of the Moon (the tunnels you dug, the
domes you erected, etc.), then I don't know. That old treaty might
or might not apply. The question is, what can anybody do about it?
If no one is prepared to use violence, then they are pretty much
reduced to shaking their collective finger at you.

"Now you, you, you STOP THAT!!"

Hi xenophile,

Glad to hear others are working on getting rid of that nefarious Treaty!

Best wishes, Andy.

xenophile2002@... wrote:

From: smasters@... [mailto:smasters@...]

Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
so, sorry.

Archives of past postings can be found at

Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?

My understanding is that it's a totally wide-open question right now. An
oft-heard lament is that right now, there isn't even a legal framework for
property rights in space, much less national sovereignty.

Regards,

Mike Combs

From:
smasters@... [mailto:smasters@...]
Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
so, sorry.

Archives of past postings can be found at
Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?

My understanding is that it's a totally wide-open question right now. An oft-heard lament is that right now, there isn't even a legal framework for property rights in space, much less national sovereignty.

Regards,
Mike Combs

Where are you planning to launch from? Probably belongs to some country at
the moment, complete with Army.

smasters@... wrote:

> Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
> so, sorry.
>
> Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build my
> own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
> colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
>
> Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the Lunar
> Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)
>
> Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
> UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
>
> Sean Masters
>

Al Globus
aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

The dinosaurs weren't spacefaring. We are. I don't think that's an accident.
Maybe we are life's taxi to the stars.

I think we should:

1. Devote half of NASA's budget ($7 billion) to reaching NASA's 2020 goal of
reducing launch costs to Low-Earth-Orbit to $220/kg with a 0.01% failure
rate.
This should enable space tourism. The resulting orbital hotels will need to
develop efficient orbital life support and other necessary technologies.

2. Build orbital space colonies. The materials in the largest asteroid are
sufficient for orbital colonies with a combined surface area about 500 times
greater than Earth's. Eros alone could make over ten thousand space colonies,

each with about about 10 square kilometers of 1g living area.

3. After a few generations of orbital living, people won't need their colony
to be near Sol. Then small groups of colonies with populations in the
tens-of-thousands can set out on multi-decade journeys to nearby stars.

Except the launch goals, none of this is even a little bit official.

Ed Minchau wrote:

> Any space settlement that is 98% self-sufficient is far more self-
> sufficient than any nation on earth. The legal claim to nationhood
> of such a settlement would be very strong, particularly if
> established by private citizens (freemen) rather than governments.
> Precendent has already been set, in the Principality of Sealand:
>
> http://www.sealandgov.com/

Sealand is well withing British national waters. One question: if a bunch of
local toughs get guns and a boat and go out to take over sealand for grins,
will England protect them or are they on their own? Not such an issue in
space (launch vehicles are harder to get than boats).

>
> :) ed
>

Al Globus
aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

The dinosaurs weren't spacefaring. We are. I don't think that's an accident.
Maybe we are life's taxi to the stars.

I think we should:

1. Devote half of NASA's budget ($7 billion) to reaching NASA's 2020 goal of
reducing launch costs to Low-Earth-Orbit to $220/kg with a 0.01% failure
rate.
This should enable space tourism. The resulting orbital hotels will need to
develop efficient orbital life support and other necessary technologies.

2. Build orbital space colonies. The materials in the largest asteroid are
sufficient for orbital colonies with a combined surface area about 500 times
greater than Earth's. Eros alone could make over ten thousand space colonies,

each with about about 10 square kilometers of 1g living area.

3. After a few generations of orbital living, people won't need their colony
to be near Sol. Then small groups of colonies with populations in the
tens-of-thousands can set out on multi-decade journeys to nearby stars.

Except the launch goals, none of this is even a little bit official.

--- In spacesettlers@y..., Al Globus wrote:
>
> Ed Minchau wrote:
>
> > Any space settlement that is 98% self-sufficient is far more self-
> > sufficient than any nation on earth. The legal claim to
nationhood
> > of such a settlement would be very strong, particularly if
> > established by private citizens (freemen) rather than governments.
> > Precendent has already been set, in the Principality of Sealand:
> >
> > http://www.sealandgov.com/
>
> Sealand is well withing British national waters. One question: if
a bunch of
> local toughs get guns and a boat and go out to take over sealand
for grins,
> will England protect them or are they on their own? Not such an
issue in
> space (launch vehicles are harder to get than boats).
>

At the time Sealand was founded as a nation, the international
nautical limit was three miles, and Sealand is six miles offshore.
Sealand claims the waters halfway to the British shore.

They have been recognized as a nation by Britian (whose high court
recognizes its lack of jurisdiction over Sealand) and by Germany (who
sent a diplomatic envoy to negotiate the release of a German citizen
from the Sealand jail following an attempted coup).

Sealand has fired shots across the bow of approaching craft before.

One thing that I think we can learn from Sealand that can be
extrapolated to space colonies, is that piracy will remain an issue.

:) ed

Al Globus wrote:

> Sealand is well withing British national waters. One question: if a bunch of
> local toughs get guns and a boat and go out to take over sealand for grins,
> will England protect them or are they on their own? Not such an issue in
> space (launch vehicles are harder to get than boats).

This actually happened. It was invaded, and someone was kidnapped. Britain
didn't lift a finger (mind you I don't know that they were asked).

IRC I think they recaptured one of the invaders and a German ambassador came
and negotiated their release (the invader was a German national.)

So more or less, they are on their own.

International waters?

Al Globus wrote:

And the port they sailed from, the factory that build the thing, etc. etc. etc.
etc.

Ian Woollard wrote:

> International waters?
>
> Al Globus wrote:
>
> > Where are you planning to launch from? Probably belongs to some country at
> > the moment, complete with Army.
> >
> > smasters@... wrote:
> >
> >> Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
> >> so, sorry.
> >>
> >> Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build my
> >> own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
> >> colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
> >>
> >> Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the Lunar
> >> Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)
> >>
> >> Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
> >> UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
> >>
> >> Sean Masters
>
> > --
> > Al Globus
> > aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
> > http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
>

Al Globus
aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

The dinosaurs weren't spacefaring. We are. I don't think that's an accident.
Maybe we are life's taxi to the stars.

I think we should:

1. Devote half of NASA's budget ($7 billion) to reaching NASA's 2020 goal of
reducing launch costs to Low-Earth-Orbit to $220/kg with a 0.01% failure rate.
This should enable space tourism. The resulting orbital hotels will need to
develop efficient orbital life support and other necessary technologies.

2. Build orbital space colonies. The materials in the largest asteroid are
sufficient for orbital colonies with a combined surface area about 500 times
greater than Earth's. Eros alone could make over ten thousand space colonies,
each with about about 10 square kilometers of 1g living area.

3. After a few generations of orbital living, people won't need their colony
to be near Sol. Then small groups of colonies with populations in the
tens-of-thousands can set out on multi-decade journeys to nearby stars.

Except the launch goals, none of this is even a little bit official.

Al Globus wrote:

> And the port they sailed from, the factory that build the thing, etc. etc. etc.
> etc.

Inject enough into their local economy and/or pay off the right/wrong
politicians and they probably won't make a fuss.

Or move to Russia. Pay them enough and it won't be a problem.

> Ian Woollard wrote:
>
>> International waters?
>>
>> Al Globus wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Where are you planning to launch from? Probably belongs to some country at
>>> the moment, complete with Army.
>>>
>>> smasters@... wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion before. If
>>>> so, sorry.
>>>>
>>>> Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go build my
>>>> own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring in
>>>> colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
>>>>
>>>> Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the Lunar
>>>> Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the king!)
>>>>
>>>> Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using violence)? The
>>>> UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
>>>>
>>>> Sean Masters
>>>
>>> --
>>> Al Globus
>>> aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
>>> http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Al Globus
> aglobus@..., (650) 604-4404
> http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
>
> The dinosaurs weren't spacefaring. We are. I don't think that's an accident.
> Maybe we are life's taxi to the stars.
>
> I think we should:
>
> 1. Devote half of NASA's budget ($7 billion) to reaching NASA's 2020 goal of
> reducing launch costs to Low-Earth-Orbit to $220/kg with a 0.01% failure rate.
> This should enable space tourism. The resulting orbital hotels will need to
> develop efficient orbital life support and other necessary technologies.
>
> 2. Build orbital space colonies. The materials in the largest asteroid are
> sufficient for orbital colonies with a combined surface area about 500 times
> greater than Earth's. Eros alone could make over ten thousand space colonies,
> each with about about 10 square kilometers of 1g living area.
>
> 3. After a few generations of orbital living, people won't need their colony
> to be near Sol. Then small groups of colonies with populations in the
> tens-of-thousands can set out on multi-decade journeys to nearby stars.
>
> Except the launch goals, none of this is even a little bit official.
>

--
- Ian Woollard (ian.woollard@...)

"Is a planetary surface the right place for an expanding technological
civilization?"
- Gerard O'Meill

--- In spacesettlers@y..., Al Globus wrote:
> And the port they sailed from, the factory that build the thing,
etc. etc. etc.
> etc.

None of those matter. A ship can be built in London, dock in 10 ports,
and sail under the flag of Mali.

All you need to do is defend your launch site long enough to build the
infrastructure you need in space to be 90% efficient. After that a
clandestine network to keep your colony supplied with the few things
it needs isn't hard to set up. It may not be economic to bring gold or
platinum, or anything else down from space, but for the things you
need to purchase, the people on earth won't ask where it came from.

You design a heavy lift vehicle that can take off land on water, bring
electrolysis equipment to seperate hydrogen and oxygen from sea water
and arrange to meet your suppliers somewhere in international waters.

Is it difficult? yes. Can it be done? yes.

Bill

>
> Ian Woollard wrote:
>
> > International waters?
> >
> > Al Globus wrote:
> >
> > > Where are you planning to launch from? Probably belongs to some
country at
> > > the moment, complete with Army.
> > >
> > > smasters@g... wrote:
> > >
> > >> Being new to the group, I may have missed this discussion
before. If
> > >> so, sorry.
> > >>
> > >> Lets say I have a gazillion dollars to spend, enough to go
build my
> > >> own lunar settlement on the moon. I build it, stock it, bring
in
> > >> colonists, etc. We are totally self-sufficient (well, 98%)
> > >>
> > >> Now, I want to start my own government. I want to call it the
Lunar
> > >> Kingdom and name myself its ruler (hey, its great to be the
king!)
> > >>
> > >> Legally, who could stop/infullience me (short of using
violence)? The
> > >> UN? The US (because I am a US citizen?) anyone?
> > >>
> > >> Sean Masters
> >
> > > --
> > > Al Globus
> > > aglobus@m..., (650) 604-4404
> > > http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
> >
> --
> Al Globus
> aglobus@m..., (650) 604-4404
> http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
>
> The dinosaurs weren't spacefaring. We are. I don't think that's an
accident.
> Maybe we are life's taxi to the stars.
>
> I think we should:
>
> 1. Devote half of NASA's budget ($7 billion) to reaching NASA's 2020
goal of
> reducing launch costs to Low-Earth-Orbit to $220/kg with a 0.01%
failure rate.
> This should enable space tourism. The resulting orbital hotels will
need to
> develop efficient orbital life support and other necessary
technologies.
>
> 2. Build orbital space colonies. The materials in the largest
asteroid are
> sufficient for orbital colonies with a combined surface area about
500 times
> greater than Earth's. Eros alone could make over ten thousand space
colonies,
> each with about about 10 square kilometers of 1g living area.
>
> 3. After a few generations of orbital living, people won't need
their colony
> to be near Sol. Then small groups of colonies with populations in
the
> tens-of-thousands can set out on multi-decade journeys to nearby
stars.