>
> "The whole world will be united by the same sentiment which united the
> primeval clan, and which made its members think, feel, and act as one.

I find utopian speculations featuring 'the unity of Man' as
hopelessly outdated and disconnected from ongoing trends. The Human
Race will only be united when there is but one person left alive.
A significant historical trend seems to be a subdividing of the
interests of the public as the greater complexity of advancing
civilization promotes narrower individual areas of interest. Even
views of reality shared by great masses of Humanity are drawing apart
and going their own ways. What is important and worth doing is thus
increasingly difficult to define by a meaningful consensus. This
process became really noticeable during the 'Cultural transformation
of the late 1960's'.* and has continued unabated. There will never be
more than a modest portion of the population which would be willing to
spend as much on Space related matters as, for instance, on debatable
military related projects.

To me the height of the 'Space movement' was the mid 1970's, where the
accomplishments of Apollo were still fresh in our minds and the next
steps forward were paused but not yet abandoned. Gerard O'Neill came
up with a fascinating scheme of building 'self replicating' giant
terrariums in which large numbers of people could live.
The idea which made Space Colonies worthwhile to me was the
possibility of creating new nations where novel societies could be
tried out without the power structure lashing out at you. Human
society, even in so-called 'free nations', through organizational
necessity allows less individual freedom the more dense the population
becomes, and there are now practically no new nations created on Earth
without episodes of bloodshed.
People are now discouraged from dreaming about setting up a new land
somewhere as various idealogical and religious groups have
historically done. As society tries to assimilate anything counter to
its interests and gets better at enforcing its demands upon
individuals we will steadily have the initiative which once made us
great bred and burned out of us. Social circles actively opposed to
such assimilation will find more of their time devoted to avoiding
measures to eradicate them.
There is at the present time many individuals who would welcome a
place to go where new ways of life could be tried, indeed the story of
the early European settlers of the United States often mention the
desire to start anew without the religious and legal impositions of
the places they were tired of living in. If enough people could be
convinced that there was a chance to leave whatever it is you hate
about your society behind and help start over a new nation aligned to
your passions, I submit this could stir the remnants of the pioneer
spirit still slumbering in many.
One Space Nation could be led by someone like Shaun Hannity, or G.
Gordon Liddy, another by someone like Paul Krassner or Abbie Hoffman,
or by religious fanatics of all stripes (except those who insist on
possession of Earthbound locations) which could form 'pure' societies
drifting physically and socially on their own paths in their own Space
Colonies with no one but themselves to blame if they can't manage
things. If freedom is considered the greatest ideal of Human
existence, the time to look for it on Earth is gone but it is not yet
an impossible ideal to strive for. I regard the old dream of starting
new societies better than those you left behind coupled with
widespread space migration into free floating space habitats as the
greatest long term hope for Humanity for this reason above all. (For
reasons I will not go into here, I regard terraforming as a waste of
time to consider.)
The second Great Motivation is virtually unlimited energy brought to
Earth by industries on these habitats. After the early 70's Arab Oil
Embargo and the resulting gas lines the idea of solar power satellites
steadily gained circulation and by the late 70's it was turned into
the likely primary industry for large space habitats, in addition to
building more habitats. As oil floats above 100 dollars a barrel, such
a novel energy source may well look more inviting, however the ability
to implement such a scheme will be hampered by economic downturns
associated with climbing energy prices.
The Human race probably has a 'window of opportunity' in which to
act toward establishing a significant Human presence in space that has
run about half way through its life. As China and India demand more
energy resources the living standards of Western nations will drop as
those of the 'up and coming' nations rise. The two major power
face-offs in the works for Mankind seem to be radical Islam vs. the
West, and China vs. the U.S. The opening salvoes of the former have
already been fired, the latter are today like two trains on a
collision course. Instabilities tug at the house of cards which is
civilization. There is still time to accomplish the miracles we dream
of but we will not be able to say this much longer.

Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the sociological
implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of opening up
the possibility of new experimental societies through space
colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be true
today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I think
the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration movement
in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies would dwarf
the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else here
interested in looking ahead towards what possibilities for new free
societies are implied by space colonization?

Don

I'm more interested in prediction than fantasy: the engineering and
economics are things we can reasonably attempt predictions about,
whereas I don't see how we can do much more than just fantasize
about whether the societies will be free. If you do, though, I
would be interested.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Don Davis"
>
> Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the
sociological
> implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of
opening up
> the possibility of new experimental societies through space
> colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
> indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be true
> today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I think
> the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration
movement
> in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies would
dwarf

As a student of history, I too would be interested.

Predicting what possible societies might develope in space isn't as
difficult as stated. Look at history. Societies are influenced much
by their environment but also by human nature. If you're expecting
some sort of utopia yhou're going to be disapointed. Those things
failed on earth even under ideal conditions. They won't succeed in
space where conditions are far more difficult.

For a colony to exist in space its people must start by sharing a
common purpose much like the Puritans had in establishing New England
and the Mormans in Utah as well as Zionists in Israil. And they have
to be realistic. As colonies become more numerous and larger models
are built things get interesting.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
>
> I'm more interested in prediction than fantasy: the engineering and
> economics are things we can reasonably attempt predictions about,
> whereas I don't see how we can do much more than just fantasize
> about whether the societies will be free. If you do, though, I
> would be interested.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Don Davis"
> wrote:
> >
> > Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the
> sociological
> > implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of
> opening up
> > the possibility of new experimental societies through space
> > colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
> > indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be true
> > today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I
think
> > the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration
> movement
> > in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies would
> dwarf
> > the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else here
> > interested in looking ahead towards what possibilities for new
free

I am very interested and I expect the talk of such to pickup shortly. However
talk is just that, talk. When we get 20 to one hundred people living in a
habitat circling Earth, A colony on Luna or Mars then we will actually be able to
put some of the ideas into practice.
Before anything else we have to get out there. A Few baby steps will do the
job. Just 20 people or even 10.

When we do that you will find interest and talk explode. Before that people
will just shrug their shoulders and say "well, it is a good idea, we will talk
about it someday."

Do you have any preliminary ideas on the subject. Something that we can
debate now.

John Wayne Smith, CEO
1000 Planets, Inc.
2006 Libertarian Candidate for Governor of Florida.

dondavis@... writes:

> For a colony to exist in space its people must start by sharing a
> common purpose much like the Puritans had in establishing New
England
> and the Mormons in Utah as well as Zionists in Israel.

I imagine most space colonies as being more like a community that
grows out of a mining camp or a trading outpost.

Starting from my engineering-and-economics orientation, I think of
what a human outpost has to do in order to provide services to
earthlings. The obvious possibilities include the stuff that we do
in space now: provide communications; look back at earth for GPS,
weather, and so on; send probes to study the rest of the solar
system; make telescopic observations of the rest of the universe.
Manufacturing satellites, even with custom components launched from
earth, seems as though it would require a lot of infrastructure. So
that would mean a fairly large workplace-in-space as the predecessor
of a real permanent community.

Another factor in favor of fairly large space habitats is the square-
cube ratio if we use passive mass radiation shielding: as you go to
a larger design, the surface area to be covered increases as the
square of the linear dimensions, while the amount of room you have
increases as the cube. So (assuming internal structure has a
constant or decreasing unit cost) it's more efficient to build
bigger, up to the limits of your materials.

But even a medium-sized space habitat probably won't be very close
to a situation where 102 fugitives from political persecution can
just draw up the Mayflower Compact, hop on a boat, and go, with so
little preparation that half of them die the first winter -- and
have the other half survive. Non-preparation that bad will probably
mean the people don't get off the ground, and failure that
catastrophic will probably be total.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "terrierkeeper"
wrote:
>
> As a student of history, I too would be interested.
>
> Predicting what possible societies might develope in space isn't
as
> difficult as stated. Look at history. Societies are influenced
much
> by their environment but also by human nature. If you're expecting
> some sort of utopia yhou're going to be disapointed. Those things
> failed on earth even under ideal conditions. They won't succeed in
> space where conditions are far more difficult.
>
> For a colony to exist in space its people must start by sharing a
> common purpose much like the Puritans had in establishing New
England
> and the Mormans in Utah as well as Zionists in Israil. And they
have
> to be realistic. As colonies become more numerous and larger
models
> are built things get interesting.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"

> wrote:
> >
> > I'm more interested in prediction than fantasy: the engineering
and
> > economics are things we can reasonably attempt predictions
about,
> > whereas I don't see how we can do much more than just fantasize
> > about whether the societies will be free. If you do, though, I
> > would be interested.
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Don Davis"

> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the
> > sociological
> > > implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of
> > opening up
> > > the possibility of new experimental societies through space
> > > colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
> > > indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be
true
> > > today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I
> think
> > > the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration
> > movement
> > > in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies
would
> > dwarf
> > > the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else
here

Don,

We could also look at space colonization from a different perspective. Applying ideas which will be necessary to put up space colonies to solve immediate problems on our own planet. Relevant ideas, could be worth many billions of $ and could help protect our environment and at the same time improve quality of life. This could be done without firing a single rocket.

1. How will large human populations live in space? If you see a typical house on earth, belonging to rich people, the space seems to be poorly utilized. Is it possible to have better quality of life living in a smaller area (and sharing wider vistas)? With the present manner of space distribution, with each family living in a dedicated house, there are unavoidable inefficiencies, could there be some other kind of social setup and space utilization plan.

2. The nature of Work? How will work be distributed in a space colony? The nature of work today on planet earth seems to be unsatisfactory. Doing sedentary work continuously does not seem to enhance health and quality of life. So will there be some kind of sharing of work. The physicist who works on theoretical problems for a week and every alternate week helps out in the space hab farm.

3. The concept of recycling? No space colony can survive without recycling. But this idea is still to pick up effectively on our own planet. Especially bringing organic waste of all kinds back to the farms.

4. There has been plenty of discussion in this forum of the possibility (indeed certainty) of wars between different space colonies. But what kind of governance will there be in each habitat? Will it be socialistic or will it be capitalistic? How do you keep a lot of human beings, in a relatively small space from rebelling. (As planet earth becomes relatively crowded, this could become a matter of concern in the future)

... etc

Selvaraj

From: Don Davis
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:13 AM
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Space colonization as the savior of Humanity

Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the sociological
implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of opening up
the possibility of new experimental societies through space
colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be true
today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I think
the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration movement
in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies would dwarf
the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else here
interested in looking ahead towards what possibilities for new free
societies are implied by space colonization?

Don

I believe the best would be a capitalist democracy much like the
Merchant Republics. Guarantees a stable and growing economy as well
as just government.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, sraj wrote:
>
> Don,
>
> We could also look at space colonization from a different
perspective. Applying ideas which will be necessary to put up space
colonies to solve immediate problems on our own planet. Relevant
ideas, could be worth many billions of $ and could help protect our
environment and at the same time improve quality of life. This could
be done without firing a single rocket.
>
> 1. How will large human populations live in space? If you see a
typical house on earth, belonging to rich people, the space seems to
be poorly utilized. Is it possible to have better quality of life
living in a smaller area (and sharing wider vistas)? With the present
manner of space distribution, with each family living in a dedicated
house, there are unavoidable inefficiencies, could there be some
other kind of social setup and space utilization plan.
>
> 2. The nature of Work? How will work be distributed in a space
colony? The nature of work today on planet earth seems to be
unsatisfactory. Doing sedentary work continuously does not seem to
enhance health and quality of life. So will there be some kind of
sharing of work. The physicist who works on theoretical problems for
a week and every alternate week helps out in the space hab farm.
>
> 3. The concept of recycling? No space colony can survive without
recycling. But this idea is still to pick up effectively on our own
planet. Especially bringing organic waste of all kinds back to the
farms.
>
> 4. There has been plenty of discussion in this forum of the
possibility (indeed certainty) of wars between different space
colonies. But what kind of governance will there be in each habitat?
Will it be socialistic or will it be capitalistic? How do you keep a
lot of human beings, in a relatively small space from rebelling. (As
planet earth becomes relatively crowded, this could become a matter
of concern in the future)
>
> ... etc
>
> Selvaraj
>
> From: Don Davis
> To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:13 AM
> Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Space colonization as the savior of
Humanity
>
> Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the
sociological
> implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of
opening up
> the possibility of new experimental societies through space
> colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
> indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be true
> today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I
think
> the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration
movement
> in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies would
dwarf
> the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else here
> interested in looking ahead towards what possibilities for new
free

The challenge is to turn space into a Gold Rush unlike anything before.

Generally, people don't care all that much about being nice and clean.

The earh probably has to be terraformed but do they really care about this?
You can point a gun at them and threaten to lop off they're heads and
they'll still refuse to do the dishes.

People want to make a difference. They want to leave behind a legacy to be
proud of. They want jobs and the opportunity to get on the ground floor of
a revolutionary super-huge money maker.

Space offers this.

Getting the word out and educating the public and convincing potential
big-money backers is the challenge.

There's a fortune to be made but nobody really knows this...

YET.

http://www.cygo.com/

On 11/30/05, sraj wrote:

Of course, in a typical gold rush most of the prospectors go broke,
and the fortunes are made selling them shovels and Levi's.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, cygonaut
>
> The challenge is to turn space into a Gold Rush unlike anything
before.
>
> Generally, people don't care all that much about being nice and
clean.
>
> The earh probably has to be terraformed but do they really care
about this?
> You can point a gun at them and threaten to lop off they're heads
and
> they'll still refuse to do the dishes.
>
> People want to make a difference. They want to leave behind a
legacy to be
> proud of. They want jobs and the opportunity to get on the ground
floor of
> a revolutionary super-huge money maker.
>
> Space offers this.
>
> Getting the word out and educating the public and convincing
potential
> big-money backers is the challenge.
>
> There's a fortune to be made but nobody really knows this...
>
> YET.
>
> http://www.cygo.com/
>
> On 11/30/05, sraj wrote:
> >
> > Don,
> >
> > We could also look at space colonization from a different
perspective.
> > Applying ideas which will be necessary to put up space colonies
to solve
> > immediate problems on our own planet. Relevant ideas, could be
worth many
> > billions of $ and could help protect our environment and at the
same time
> > improve quality of life. This could be done without firing a
single
> > rocket.
> >
> > 1. How will large human populations live in space? If you see a
typical
> > house on earth, belonging to rich people, the space seems to be
poorly
> > utilized. Is it possible to have better quality of life living
in a smaller
> > area (and sharing wider vistas)? With the present manner of space
> > distribution, with each family living in a dedicated house,
there are
> > unavoidable inefficiencies, could there be some other kind of
social setup
> > and space utilization plan.
> >
> > 2. The nature of Work? How will work be distributed in a space
colony?
> > The nature of work today on planet earth seems to be
unsatisfactory. Doing
> > sedentary work continuously does not seem to enhance health and
quality of
> > life. So will there be some kind of sharing of work. The
physicist who works
> > on theoretical problems for a week and every alternate week
helps out in the
> > space hab farm.
> >
> > 3. The concept of recycling? No space colony can survive without
> > recycling. But this idea is still to pick up effectively on our
own planet.
> > Especially bringing organic waste of all kinds back to the farms.
> >
> > 4. There has been plenty of discussion in this forum of the
possibility
> > (indeed certainty) of wars between different space colonies. But
what kind
> > of governance will there be in each habitat? Will it be
socialistic or will
> > it be capitalistic? How do you keep a lot of human beings, in a
relatively
> > small space from rebelling. (As planet earth becomes relatively
crowded,
> > this could become a matter of concern in the future)
> >
> > ... etc
> >
> > Selvaraj
> >
> > From: Don Davis
> > To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2005 11:13 AM
> > Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Space colonization as the savior
of
> > Humanity
> >
> > Over a month ago I posted some comments relating to the
sociological
> > implications of Space colonization. In the 70's the idea of
opening up
> > the possibility of new experimental societies through space
> > colonization was attractive to people who would otherwise be
> > indifferent at best to space travel. I suspect this could be
true
> > today if space colonies began to be widely discussed again. I
think
> > the beneficial effects on Humanity of such a space migration
movement
> > in allowing renewed branching out of indigenous societies
would dwarf
> > the economic and engineering considerations. Is anyone else
here
> > interested in looking ahead towards what possibilities for new
free
> > societies are implied by space colonization?
> >
> > Don
> >
t=ms&k=Science+kits&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Science+k
it+for+kid&w4=History+of+space+exploration&w5=My+first+science+kit&w6
=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=gTrCdYxE2q_EvQGIAV71Ag> Science
t=ms&k=Science+education&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Scie
it&w6=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=KrrU9QkAFWiVNpH7h9RtDw>
Science
+kit&w6=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=W-7BEO8r3ZtoQ9jbs4CBTA>
History
t=ms&k=History+of+space+exploration&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+educat
t+science+kit&w6=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=HCnkutu-
WbqIdDyZ03N73A> My
t=ms&k=My+first+science+kit&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=S
e+kit&w6=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=N-Ap7BxC283oYZFOVALO2w>
Space
t=ms&k=Space+exploration&w1=Science+kits&w2=Science+education&w3=Scie
it&w6=Space+exploration&c=6&s=149&.sig=3RuMQBQgzqtT7sV2N-JRQA>

On 11/30/05, sraj wrote:
> 3. The concept of recycling? No space colony can survive without recycling.
> But this idea is still to pick up effectively on our own planet. Especially
> bringing organic waste of all kinds back to the farms.

You probably don't want to do that with human waste though; too many
pathogens can be passed between humans that way. And the idea that you
can medically isolate a habitat from other habitats and Earth is
extremely unlikely.

Ultimately you can always do supercritical water oxidation:

http://www.turbosynthesis.com/summitresearch/sumscw1.htm

Basically stick anything organic in there and it comes out as CO2, N2,
H2O and miscellaneous. You can then stick the gases into the
atmosphere for the plants to recycle for you.

We know from nuclear powered submarines that, provided you have plenty
of power, life support is not a huge problem.

> Selvaraj

-Ian Woollard

Identity cards, cameras on every corner, long term detention without
trial, electronic tapping and reading of email/phone calls, speed
cameras that increase the death rate, extradition for torture - It's
all double plus good, Big Brother Blair and Uncle Bush are my friend!

On 12/12/05, Ian Woollard wrote:
>
> On 11/30/05, sraj wrote:
> > 3. The concept of recycling? No space colony can survive without
> recycling.
> > But this idea is still to pick up effectively on our own planet.
> Especially
> > bringing organic waste of all kinds back to the farms.
>
> You probably don't want to do that with human waste though; too many
> pathogens can be passed between humans that way. And the idea that you
> can medically isolate a habitat from other habitats and Earth is
> extremely unlikely.

Human wastes can be used to fertilize fields that grow crops for animal
feed. Just as animals wastes are used to fertilize crops for human feed.

The Chinese have been doing this for about 40 centuries.

Ultimately you can always do supercritical water oxidation:
>
> http://www.turbosynthesis.com/summitresearch/sumscw1.htm
>
> Basically stick anything organic in there and it comes out as CO2, N2,
> H2O and miscellaneous. You can then stick the gases into the
> atmosphere for the plants to recycle for you.
>
> We know from nuclear powered submarines that, provided you have plenty
> of power, life support is not a huge problem.
>
> > Selvaraj
>
> --
> -Ian Woollard
>
> Identity cards, cameras on every corner, long term detention without
> trial, electronic tapping and reading of email/phone calls, speed
> cameras that increase the death rate, extradition for torture - It's
> all double plus good, Big Brother Blair and Uncle Bush are my friend!
>

Rick Brooks

In a message dated 12/22/2005 8:36:45 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rabrooks@... writes:

> Human wastes can be used to fertilize fields that grow crops for animal
> feed. Just as animals wastes are used to fertilize crops for human feed.
>
> The Chinese have been doing this for about 40 centuries.
>

And the Chinese were the first to figure out bio-digestion. Converting human,
animal and plant waste into the highest grade of ammonium nitrate fertilizer
and methane gas which can be used for all energy sources. You can cook with
it, produce electricity with it and even use it for rocket fuel.

Besides tourism, our space catalog includes homes, offices, and private
transport vehicles. For practical economic reasons, we can't turn away
customers. That's just not gonna happen.

The human element is unavoidably inclusive.

George
http://www.cygo.com/

On 12/22/05, Rick Brooks wrote:

Posted in another forum.

HAPPY NEW YEAR. May the FORCE be with you.

Selvaraj

Dear Dr. Ajay

It is very important to keep the promise of space colonization on our
horizon. Planet Earth is the only entity in the Solar System which harbours
life, that too, in such glorious profusion. Astronomers believe that there
will be other similar planets in the Milky Ways galaxy (which consists of
more than a 100 billion stars), but then, it is also possible that the
conditions which allow a planet to harbour life in such profusion could be a
one in a 100 billion event. So what we need to focus on is saving planet
Earth from the depredation of a particular species. What I posted should
not be construed as 'Space colonization is not important'. It was just a
suggestion to apply related ideas to solve some of the problems on our own
planet.

Putting the problem in a nutshell, planet Earth is simply too fragile for
our human ambitions. It is very difficult for us indulge in our 'technology
stuff' - great monuments, roads crisscrossing our planet, facilities to
house and feed 6 billion (soon to be 9 billion) people; our ambitions in
biotechnology (where we would like to experiment with new life-forms) -
without coming to odds with NATURE.

There are two schools of thought concerning colonization of space. One
school, let us call them the 'romantics' would like to colonize Moon and
Mars. This group believes that it is technologically feasible to terraform
Mars, that is, make it just like earth, with a breathable atmosphere, and
with lakes and forests. The other group, they are the 'pragmatists' think
this idea is ridiculous. They don't like the idea of being caught in a
'gravity well' (a delta V of 11.2 Kps is required to escape Earth's
gravity, while incremental delta V of 3.2 Kps is enough to take us to
Mars). They would prefer free floating cities in orbit around the sun. This
group after doing their calculations have come to the conclusion that
hundreds of billions of people can be accommodated in these floating cities.

These two groups have not started a fist fight yet, but it could come to
that eventually : - ) ...... Colonization of space will make it possible for
us to
indulge our wildest technological fantasies. And, much, much more important,
protect the wild profusion of life on our planet.

Selvaraj

Ref: http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/settle.htm

From: "Dr ajay"

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sraj

> These two groups have not started a fist fight yet,
> but it could come to that eventually

I'd say that the comments Bob Zubrin made in two of his books might
represent a couple of bare-knuckle punches.

I once got into a debate with a Mars advocate who cried that O'Neill
started it. O'Neill made factual and fairly objective remarks like
"planets lie at the bottoms of steep gravity wells". Zubrin said,
"O'Neill was wrong and has misled the space advocacy community".

Regards,

Mike Combs

Mars does hold one huge advantage, and that's that more people know
about it. How many movies and TV shows have been made about Mars?
Habitats have _Mobile Suit Gundum_ and _L5: First City in Space_
and... well... that's about it.

It's obvious that I'm never gonna finish my Island One family sitcom,
just like I never finish any project. Well, almost any project.

Mike, I sure wish somebody would film your _If Not for the Fall_. I
also think your _Disigning Paradise_ would make a good ep for a hard
sci-fi anthology show, kind of a diamond-plated _Outer Limits_.

Could an updated version of O'Neill's _2081_, say a _2112_, make a
good movie? Most science fiction movies today are action movies with
SF elements, but it doesn't have to be that way all the time. Does it?

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Xenophile

> Mars does hold one huge advantage, and that's that more people
> know about it. How many movies and TV shows have been made about
Mars?
> Habitats have _Mobile Suit Gundum_ and _L5: First City in Space_
and...
> well... that's about it.

I was having one debate with a guy on Usenet who asked me to visualize
two piles of books: one of all the books on Mars and one on orbital
habitats. He seemed to feel this was a clinching argument on which was
the better settlement strategy.

> Mike, I sure wish somebody would film your _If Not for the Fall_.

I wrote it in script format thinking that at the very least the parts
set in the ruins of the city might be filmable in some _really_ run-down
neighborhood. The thing is, since I wrote that, my philosophy has
changed a bit. I no longer seriously worry about resource depletion or
overpopulation. Nowadays I worry more about a gradual fossilization,
regimentation, and stultification of our global culture. Bad, but not
in the sense of billions perishing.

But then I just remembered that nuclear terrorism was a plot element.
If anything, I feel like we've moved even closer to that horrifying
prospect since I wrote INftF. What's sad is that it's now less likely
to be over anything as sensible as resources, and more likely to be part
of some religious fantasy enactment.

> I also think your _Disigning Paradise_ would make a good ep for a hard

> sci-fi anthology show, kind of a diamond-plated _Outer Limits_.

Yeah, I can see the comparison. Unlike some of my stories, at least
parts of that one take place on present-era Earth, and that might hold
expenses down.

> Could an updated version of O'Neill's _2081_, say a _2112_,
> make a good movie? Most science fiction movies today are
> action movies with SF elements, but it doesn't have to be
> that way all the time. Does it?

I don't see a reason that it couldn't still be set in 2081 (which is
still quite a ways off). But the problem is that 2081 isn't a novel,
it's a travelogue of the future. I remember handing the book to a
college classmate who never got through it. I'm still convinced he gave
up on it because he kept waiting for the plot to thicken. But of course
there was no plot at all; it was simply one man's view of what the
future might be like.

Regards,

Mike Combs

And you ask why so few people know about space islands?

Get back to work. Finish the Job. Personally, I do not believe a
sitcom is a good idea, dramas are best but you won't prove me wrong
until you get the job done. It took me TEN Years from start to
finish to complete my novel, SEALION'S BYTE but I got the job done.
Finding a publisher was difficult but I got the job done. I have even
managed to sell copies of my novel though not many. Critics don't
review novels not written by the Big Boys' approved few and their
little ladies from Ba Ma and Wesly with their little degrees
of 'literature' who pick them. I'm selling copies, though not many.
At twenty nine dollars ninety five cents, they're rather expensive.
Still, I am not quitting. My Brother died of cancer last year, a few
days before Christmas. It took him more than a year of struggle with
the disease before he died. He leaves a wife and a kid. My family
died each day with him. Each day the phone rang I felt hope but I
also felt great dread. Listening to mother cry was hell. I have
finally resumed work on my next project.

If you believe in your idea, push it.

If this thing is bombing on you, take it apart, salvage what you can,
learn what you can and start over.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> Mars does hold one huge advantage, and that's that more people know
> about it. How many movies and TV shows have been made about Mars?
> Habitats have _Mobile Suit Gundum_ and _L5: First City in Space_
> and... well... that's about it.
>
> It's obvious that I'm never gonna finish my Island One family
sitcom,
> just like I never finish any project. Well, almost any project.
>
> Mike, I sure wish somebody would film your _If Not for the Fall_.
I
> also think your _Disigning Paradise_ would make a good ep for a
hard
> sci-fi anthology show, kind of a diamond-plated _Outer Limits_.
>
> Could an updated version of O'Neill's _2081_, say a _2112_, make a
> good movie? Most science fiction movies today are action movies
with
> SF elements, but it doesn't have to be that way all the time. Does
it?

Long-time lurker, first time poster (hopefully the first of many);

Another salvo has been fired in this debate. Listen to the archived
MP3 of the December 19, 2005 installment of "The Space Show" (hosted
by David Livingston at http://www.thespaceshow.com/):

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/429-BWB-2005-12-19.mp3

The relevant portion of the show to this thread is from about 44
minutes in to 57 minutes in; Bob Zubrin was the guest, and Al Globus
called in. Listen for Dr. Zubrin's view of the cost of SPS at about
52 minutes into the show.

Apologies if this starts a ruckus, but this board's been too quiet :)

Shane Brown

P.S. Also check out the archived show with Dr. Lee Valentine of SSI:

http://archived.thespaceshow.com/shows/204-BWB-2004-03-16.wma

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike"