I've mentioned it from time to time. So here is the gist of it.

_______________ISLAND ONE_______________

The pilot would be a two-parter (or two-hour special), and would be
about the Ching family moving into the Island. The regular series
would pick up a year and a half later, when the second Island One is
half-built. If the series lasts into a second season, then some eps
would involve visits to the other Island. The exotic background of
space would always be there, with the stories built around the joys,
fears, resentments, and life lessons that family sitcoms have built
stories around since there have been family sitcoms.

It would be like doing a family sitcom set in Hawaii (or a Kenyan
wildlife park [or space]): there would be plenty of visuals of palm
trees and beaches (or acacia trees and giraffs [or the curving
landscape and the vastness of space]), with the characters sometimes
eating papaya and surfing (or eating antelope and tagging wild
animals [or playing zero-G sports and doing space construction
work]), and maybe even an ep or two dealing with the fears of a
hurricane or tsunami (or poachers or a rogue lion [or meteroid
impact]). But ultimately the show would be about this family, not
about Hawaii (or Kenya [or space]). It would be about "You always
treat me like a baby!" and "You seem to spend more time on that job
than you do at home!" and "But Dad, why would a girl say she was
crazy about me and then dump me like that?" Ah, but it *is* taking
place in space, and there are those "featured sci/tech" moments at
the end.

Each episode of Island One will present scientific information and
the possible technology of the near future, hidden in the story
itself. Also, one of the actors/actresses will give a brief,
multimedia summary of each show's "featured sci/tech." This will
allow the network to claim the entire hour as "educational content."
The stories themselves will focus on one or more members of the Ching
family, who are:

Ladonna Ann Carver Ching (Mother)
Benjamin Franklin Ching (Father)
Ly Jessy Ching (Teenaged Son)
La Toya Syulin Ching (Under-Ten Daughter)
Michelle Marie Charlotte Bonet (Son's Girlfriend)
(Michelle is not a regular member of the cast until the 2nd season)

Each season would have from sixteen to twenty-four episodes, and
hopefully the show would last a few seasons.

__________ISLAND ONE__________
SEASON 1

Pilot, pt. 1
The Ching family is on the way to a space hotel. They are excited,
but also a bit nervous, especially Ly (13 years old) and La Toya (4
years old). Daddy is already up there, helping to build the Island,
and the kids and Mommy is an agricultural engineer, needed in these
final stages. They will stay in the hotel for the final three weeks
before moving into the Island. We actually see the Island (from the
outside) for the first time near the end of the ep. It is utterly
ginormous humonkious BIG!
FEATURED TECH: Launch Vehicles

Pilot, pt. 2
The Chings are finally moving into the Island. For the first time,
we see those grand, sweeping views of the interior (we saw some
little pics in the first ep, but nothing screen-filling). The
landscaping is incomplete, with sod squares visible on the rooftop
lawns (with some squares missing), and flower beds full of dirt and
no flowers yet. The park has trees, but the signs of recent planting
are clearly visible, and the waterfall keeps getting stuck. Half the
swing sets and teeter totters and jungle gyms and such are still
lying around in pieces, but the other half are ready to be played
on. Workers (over half of them robotic) are scurrying about
everywhere, getting the rest of the preparations done. 2,000 people
are moving in.
FEATURED TECH: Orbital Transfer Vehicles

Ep. 3
Pics up a year and a half from the day that the Ching family moved
into the Island. The population is now 8,000 and growing. The next
Island is being built, and is in fact two-thirds done. Next year,
people will be moving into it. The landscaping is complete, the
waterfall no longer conks out, and we see La Toya and friends
enjoying the jungle gyms, including a low-gravity one in a spoke.
Ly is now 15, and La Toya is 6. La Toya, isn't sure what to make of
the change from kindergarten, with its emphasis on play (though there
were indeed some academics), and the first grade, with its emphasis
on academics (though there is still play). In particular, she
questions the value of Earth history for those living in Space.
FEATURED SCI: Children's Brains

Ep. 4
Ben (Dad) and Ladonna (Mom) are both up for promotions at their
respective jobs, each is spending more time on their respective jobs
to impress their respective bosses, and each resents the other for
not spending enough time with the family (while failing to recognize
that they are guilty of the same), and the kids resent them both.
What a mess.
FEATURED TECH: Hydroponics

Ep. 5
Ben thinks that a proposed change in priorities (slowing down habitat
construction to speed up powersat construction) might enhance the
promotion he got the last episode. However, he also worries that
this switch, if it happens, will jeopardize the entire space
settlement movement. It would mean that the doubling rate of
habitats would be seven years, instead of three.
FEATURED TECH: Powersats
Ep. 6 Ly is having trouble maintaining his grades, because of the
time he spends on his social life and sports (he's a jock and ladies
man). He is in danger of being kicked off the Z-Golo (zero-gravity
team sport) team if he can't pick up his grades.
FEATURED SCI: Zero-G Motion, Newtonian Movement

Ep. 7
Ben's friend is injured in a construction accident. It isn't
permanently disabling or anything like that; the man just has to
spend a few days in the hospital. La Toya is now worried that her
father's job is too dangerous. Ly is too macho to admit to any such
concern, but he feels it.
FEATURED TECH: Vacuum Vapor Deposition

Ep. 8
La Toya wants to go with her friend and her friend's family on a
solar yacht trip that will last a weekend. Her parents wonder if she
is old enough to go on such a trip without them. La Toya resents
being treated like a baby.
FEATURED TECH: Solar Sails & Light Sails

I really like the idea of someone showing off their CGI mojo by doing
the lighting effects of sunlight coming through chevron shields, by
integrating face and gesture of live actors into animation of people
walking in .7 g's with noticeable coriolis force, and so on.

I would like to see it done with a whole culture and economy figured
out as background. I'm sure there are some nerds around who would do
a lot of that part of the work for nothing or next to.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"

Interesting idea.

But wouldn't it be nice if at least part of your show family were to
be shown moving from earth and going to the space islad.

Have have them board their heavy lift launch vehicle at Cape
Canaveral or Vandenberg. Show scenes like any airport. Have them
carrying CD or DVD players for the long trip. perhaps the family pet
in a carry on. Show all the details of lifte off. The happy reunion
at the Island's space port and all that.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
>
> I really like the idea of someone showing off their CGI mojo by
doing
> the lighting effects of sunlight coming through chevron shields, by
> integrating face and gesture of live actors into animation of
people
> walking in .7 g's with noticeable coriolis force, and so on.
>
> I would like to see it done with a whole culture and economy
figured
> out as background. I'm sure there are some nerds around who would
do
> a lot of that part of the work for nothing or next to.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"

> wrote:
> >
> > The sentence
> > "Daddy is already up there, helping to build the Island,
> > and the kids and Mommy is an agricultural engineer, needed in
these

--- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:

> Interesting idea.

Thanks. I'd like to watch this myself.

> But wouldn't it be nice if at least part of your show family were
> to be shown moving from earth and going to the space islad.

"and the kids are on the way with Mommy..."
This ep's tech feature is launch vehicles, so we have to have a
launch vehicle in the ep.

> Have have them board their heavy lift launch vehicle at Cape
> Canaveral or Vandenberg. Show scenes like any airport. Have them
> carrying CD or DVD players for the long trip.
> perhaps the family pet in a carry on. Show all the details of lifte
> off. The happy reunion at the Island's space port and all that.

I think I'm going to try to write this scene. No promises, my muse
is a fickle wench.

Tell me something I don't know. The muse is very fickle. It took me
ten years of reseach writing and rewriting to develope complete and
publish my novel. Then one of my brothers was diagnosed with cancer.
He died of it a few days before last Christmas after a long and
agonizing struggle. I'm pn;y getting myself back together.

Good luck.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
>
> > Interesting idea.
>
> Thanks. I'd like to watch this myself.
>
> > But wouldn't it be nice if at least part of your show family were
> > to be shown moving from earth and going to the space islad.
>
> "and the kids are on the way with Mommy..."
> This ep's tech feature is launch vehicles, so we have to have a
> launch vehicle in the ep.
>
> > Have have them board their heavy lift launch vehicle at Cape
> > Canaveral or Vandenberg. Show scenes like any airport. Have them
> > carrying CD or DVD players for the long trip.
> > perhaps the family pet in a carry on. Show all the details of
lifte

An oldie but a goodie, just call it "link"
Of course you could always get each character to name their link, but then you
have to think up several names

Quoting Xenophile :

>From the day we are born we are destined to die. Unfotunately for my
brother that was his cue out.

Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better grounds
for a television series. Space Island Society would have to start
forming governments. Diffferent island types would be under
developement. And then there is Crime which society would have to
confront and how to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft
approach that is the fad in western civilisation yet there is some
possibility they might be like the wild west.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"

--- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:

> Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would have to
> start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be under
> developement.

For most of the public, though, starting with the very first Island
One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization might
be a bit much for them.

> And then there is Crime which society would have to confront and how
> to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach that is
> the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility they
> might be like the wild west.

I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit, or in
the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main Asteroid
Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would make
an interesting setting.

This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
_Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island Ones,
an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.

My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon for
kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech (which
would have supertech weird science stuff, like giving four young
people superpowers).

Actually it could be much like the wild west.

Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of the
time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James Gangs?
Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
Tombstone.

In addition to which there is one question that will have to be asked
of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the UN
Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to wishes
of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather than
hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
dislike.

The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.

Thent there is crime and punishment.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would have
to
> > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be under
> > developement.
>
> For most of the public, though, starting with the very first Island
> One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
might
> be a bit much for them.
>
> > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront and
how
> > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach that
is
> > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility they
> > might be like the wild west.
>
> I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit, or
in
> the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
Asteroid
> Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would
make
> an interesting setting.
>
> This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
> interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
Ones,
> an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
>
> My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon
for
> kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
(which

--- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:

> Actually it could be much like the wild west.

Sorry. I'm still thinking a cross between Jamestown, Walnut Grove
and Celebration, Florida.

> Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
> the time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
> Gangs?

Bang bang.

> Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> Tombstone.

True, and trouble finds small towns, sleepy villages, and major
metropolitan mega-cities just the same.

> In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
> asked of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments?

There is absolutely no way these can be built without first answering
the questions "who's in charge?" and "why is that person (or group)
in charge?"

I'm not quite sure how to work that into a family sitcome, though,
unless I make one of the parents the mayor/govenor/iron-fisted
dictator/whatever.

> I suspect the UN Might try for a power grab and want to run them as
> International Settlements according to their own rules and with no
> regard to wishes of the inhabitants.

Maybe those ARE the wishes of the inhabitants.

> They'll want to appoint governments rather than hold elections. And
> if any elections are held they'll insist on writing the
> constituitions and veto for any candidate they may dislike.

Why would they do that? They are going to have a hard time finding
settlers if they try that.

> The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.

Before the things are built, I would imagine.

> Thent there is crime and punishment.

Again, I'm not sure how to portray that in a family sitcom. I
suppose I could do an episode where the teenaged boy is peer
preasured into commiting some minor crime, thus giving us a look at
how Island law enforcement and criminal justice works. Certainly we
can't just assume that nobody will ever do anything bad.

Some of these Big Picture things would be hard to fit into a sit-com.
THough they will be problems for future colonists.

Certainly Island Two will be the time when these things will reallyy
start popping up.

However Beurocrats are a good source of Comedy. There's nothing
funnier than a buffon in charge, unless it's real life.
You might have an episode when some UN delegation coming up and
telling the colonists how to run their lives with a typical we know
better than you attitude. These people, as with the left in general,
think decisions and power are from the top down rather than listening
to the people from whom their power actually comes. One need only
look to the news to see this in practice.

As for his discouraging colonists, I doubt that thought would even
enter their petty little minds. Still I suppose they can be played
out for the clowns they are for great humor.

Personally, I find I enjoy a good drama. Something intellectually
challenging to the mind. In my novel I have an Israili go back in
time to prevent the Holocaust. Which hardly provides anyone with any
place for humor. First he assasinates Hitler, then he starts
ripping out the machinery from within. While at the same time, there
is the war going on. Hardly any place for comedy to be played.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
>
> > Actually it could be much like the wild west.
>
> Sorry. I'm still thinking a cross between Jamestown, Walnut Grove
> and Celebration, Florida.
>
> > Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
> > the time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
> > Gangs?
>
> Bang bang.
>
> > Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> > Tombstone.
>
> True, and trouble finds small towns, sleepy villages, and major
> metropolitan mega-cities just the same.
>
> > In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
> > asked of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments?
>
> There is absolutely no way these can be built without first
answering
> the questions "who's in charge?" and "why is that person (or group)
> in charge?"
>
> I'm not quite sure how to work that into a family sitcome, though,
> unless I make one of the parents the mayor/govenor/iron-fisted
> dictator/whatever.
>
> > I suspect the UN Might try for a power grab and want to run them
as
> > International Settlements according to their own rules and with no
> > regard to wishes of the inhabitants.
>
> Maybe those ARE the wishes of the inhabitants.
>
> > They'll want to appoint governments rather than hold elections.
And
> > if any elections are held they'll insist on writing the
> > constituitions and veto for any candidate they may dislike.
>
> Why would they do that? They are going to have a hard time finding
> settlers if they try that.
>
> > The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
>
> Before the things are built, I would imagine.
>
> > Thent there is crime and punishment.
>
> Again, I'm not sure how to portray that in a family sitcom. I
> suppose I could do an episode where the teenaged boy is peer
> preasured into commiting some minor crime, thus giving us a look at
> how Island law enforcement and criminal justice works. Certainly
we

--- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:

> Some of these Big Picture things would be hard to fit into a sit-
> com.
> THough they will be problems for future colonists.

Yes, and yes.

> Certainly Island Two will be the time when these things will
> reallyy start popping up.

Yes. By the time you have, not a few tens of thousands, but millions
of settlers, this stuff will come to a head. When even individual
Islands have populations exceeding that of the old city-states, and
there are dozens to hundreds of such, they become a force (especially
an economic force) to be reckoned with.

> However Beurocrats are a good source of Comedy. There's nothing
> funnier than a buffon in charge, unless it's real life.

You have a point here. And looking over my earlier post, I see that
Episode Five is as follows:

Ep. 5
Ben thinks that a proposed change in priorities (slowing down habitat
construction to speed up powersat construction) might enhance the
promotion he got the last episode. However, he also worries that
this switch, if it happens, will jeopardize the entire space
settlement movement. It would mean that the doubling rate of
habitats would be seven years, instead of three.
FEATURED TECH: Powersats

So there is room for a blustering know-it-all or two. It's obvious
that Ben didn't make the decision himself.

> You might have an episode when some UN delegation coming up and
> telling the colonists how to run their lives with a typical we know
> better than you attitude.

Not sure it would be the UN. It would be whoever is footing the
bill. If the Island is built by Exxon, then Exxon would be in
charge; if the US gubmint built it, then some Congressional
Subcommitee would run the show; and if the UN built it... Really,
when has the UN tried to "rule" anything? Did they ever suggest
running Somalia as a UN colony, or any such? The UN doesn't rule
anything. They are exactly what you called them: bureaucrats. They
would load the place up with treaties and regulations, but probably
couldn't care less if they tried how they picked their leaders.

> These people, as with the left in general, think decisions and
> power are from the top down rather than listening to the people
> from whom their power actually comes.

Which is exactly what liberals say about the right. This isn't
conservative v liberal, it's the nature of power. Anyway, the last
thing I would want to do with this show is a left v right thing. Why
piss off half the audience immediately, no matter which side I choose?

> One need only look to the news to see this in practice.
>
> As for his discouraging colonists, I doubt that thought would even
> enter their petty little minds. Still I suppose they can be played
> out for the clowns they are for great humor.

It doesn't have to enter the bureaucrats minds; it only has to enter
the minds of the prospective colonists.

> Personally, I find I enjoy a good drama. Something intellectually
> challenging to the mind.

Yes, these can be good when _Happy Days_ or _Tarzan and the Golden
Lion_ wear thin. I like comedies for High Frontier stuff because it
introduces the idea in a non-treatening way to those who are not
familiar with it. But there is plenty of room for drama, comedy,
tragedy, politics, cop shows, porn, war, western-type, and more
besides.

> In my novel I have an Israili go back in time to prevent the
> Holocaust. Which hardly provides anyone with any place for humor.

Well, no, that doesn't sound like something that would go well with a
laugh track.

> First he assasinates Hitler, then he starts ripping out the
> machinery from within. While at the same time, there is the war
> going on. Hardly any place for comedy to be played.

Certainly not laugh-a-minute stuff, but it does sound interesting.
The implications are huge (i.e., no Holocaust, no Isreal; no Israel,
no PLO; no PLO, no...?).

The left in general is far more anti-authoritarian than the right.
Sure, there have been left-wing authoritarians like Communists, but
they're basically extinct. Right-wing authoritarians by contrast
run the whole US government, and they spend more money than any
Democrat ever dreamed of because they've gone berzerk with the
credit card instead of having to get the taxes passed without being
thrown out of office.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "terrierkeeper"
wrote:
>
> Some of these Big Picture things would be hard to fit into a sit-
com.
> THough they will be problems for future colonists.
>
> Certainly Island Two will be the time when these things will
reallyy
> start popping up.
>
> However Beurocrats are a good source of Comedy. There's nothing
> funnier than a buffon in charge, unless it's real life.
> You might have an episode when some UN delegation coming up and
> telling the colonists how to run their lives with a typical we
know
> better than you attitude. These people, as with the left in
general,
> think decisions and power are from the top down rather than
listening
> to the people from whom their power actually comes. One need only
> look to the news to see this in practice.
>
> As for his discouraging colonists, I doubt that thought would even
> enter their petty little minds. Still I suppose they can be played
> out for the clowns they are for great humor.
>
> Personally, I find I enjoy a good drama. Something intellectually
> challenging to the mind. In my novel I have an Israili go back in
> time to prevent the Holocaust. Which hardly provides anyone with
any
> place for humor. First he assasinates Hitler, then he starts
> ripping out the machinery from within. While at the same time,
there
> is the war going on. Hardly any place for comedy to be played.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
> >
> > > Actually it could be much like the wild west.
> >
> > Sorry. I'm still thinking a cross between Jamestown, Walnut
Grove
> > and Celebration, Florida.
> >
> > > Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns
of
> > > the time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and
James
> > > Gangs?
> >
> > Bang bang.
> >
> > > Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> > > Tombstone.
> >
> > True, and trouble finds small towns, sleepy villages, and major
> > metropolitan mega-cities just the same.
> >
> > > In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
> > > asked of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments?
> >
> > There is absolutely no way these can be built without first
> answering
> > the questions "who's in charge?" and "why is that person (or
group)
> > in charge?"
> >
> > I'm not quite sure how to work that into a family sitcome,
though,
> > unless I make one of the parents the mayor/govenor/iron-fisted
> > dictator/whatever.
> >
> > > I suspect the UN Might try for a power grab and want to run
them
> as
> > > International Settlements according to their own rules and
with no
> > > regard to wishes of the inhabitants.
> >
> > Maybe those ARE the wishes of the inhabitants.
> >
> > > They'll want to appoint governments rather than hold
elections.
> And
> > > if any elections are held they'll insist on writing the
> > > constituitions and veto for any candidate they may dislike.
> >
> > Why would they do that? They are going to have a hard time
finding
> > settlers if they try that.
> >
> > > The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
> >
> > Before the things are built, I would imagine.
> >
> > > Thent there is crime and punishment.
> >
> > Again, I'm not sure how to portray that in a family sitcom. I
> > suppose I could do an episode where the teenaged boy is peer
> > preasured into commiting some minor crime, thus giving us a look
at
> > how Island law enforcement and criminal justice works.
Certainly

Actually Burocrats tend to screw up in the minor things. Sometimes
it's just the smallest thing, the littlest regulation. Something like
a housing regulation or a behavior rule that defies logic. Something
some NGO comes up with. Something some 'Expert' decides. And when
things don't go as predicted, they put their foot down. Or their
little change of regulations without notice and then make them
retroactive. God have mercy if its housing and something like a
foundation is set to old standards, constructed, and then has to be
completely redug to meet the new standards. It gets worse if they
then change the regulations to different standards after that. Or
when they srew up and then go CYA. All kinds of opporunities for
mischief and humor in there.

As for the so called 'Right Wing extremists', they don't employ
activst judges to 'find' things for them in the constituion
through 'evolving standards' or 'International Law'. They get things
done by the people electing them to public office.

You're right. My novel isn't funny due to the subject matter. It took
a lot of research. Looking though a lot of terrible things. Meeting
in the written pages a lot of terrible people. Certainly it has left
me with a low opinion of people in general.

That is one of the reasons I have such an interest in O'Neal's vision
of space habitats.

Certainly, I have seen a lot of bad thigns in researching my novel.
It was quite a challenge, figuring out what connections the Professor
would have to make. Who would his allies be. Who his targets would
be. How he would eliminate Hitler and then rip his followers apart
from within. And then figuring out the consequences and how to deal
with them.

Certainly there would be consequences getting rid of Hitler. No
Hitler means no longer would the Wehrmacht be subject to his meddling
incompotence. Which would be bad news for Western Europe's Liberal
Democracies and the Soviet Union. Perhaps the United States.

No Hitler no nazi racist ideology might lead to a delay in the state
of Israil coming into being. No Middle East Crisis around Israil but
perhaps one centered around Italian or French colonialist efforts
clashing with arab nationalist movements. Perhaps no Atomic Bomb with
men like Albert Einstein no longer fearing a possible Reich Atomic
bomb but then turning their fears to an atomic bomb being owned by
anyone and the prospect that any American atomic bomb dropped in
europe might undoubtedly fall on a city with a large Jewish
population which might include their own relatives.

It might even lead to a German being the first man on the moon.
Greater interest in space and L5 due to the prospect or endless
Lebensraum, especially with a more socially conservate europe and
growing populations.

The consequences would be exponential and facinating.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
>
> > Some of these Big Picture things would be hard to fit into a sit-
> > com.
> > THough they will be problems for future colonists.
>
> Yes, and yes.
>
> > Certainly Island Two will be the time when these things will
> > reallyy start popping up.
>
> Yes. By the time you have, not a few tens of thousands, but
millions
> of settlers, this stuff will come to a head. When even individual
> Islands have populations exceeding that of the old city-states, and
> there are dozens to hundreds of such, they become a force
(especially
> an economic force) to be reckoned with.
>
> > However Beurocrats are a good source of Comedy. There's nothing
> > funnier than a buffon in charge, unless it's real life.
>
> You have a point here. And looking over my earlier post, I see
that
> Episode Five is as follows:
>
> Ep. 5
> Ben thinks that a proposed change in priorities (slowing down
habitat
> construction to speed up powersat construction) might enhance the
> promotion he got the last episode. However, he also worries that
> this switch, if it happens, will jeopardize the entire space
> settlement movement. It would mean that the doubling rate of
> habitats would be seven years, instead of three.
> FEATURED TECH: Powersats
>
> So there is room for a blustering know-it-all or two. It's obvious
> that Ben didn't make the decision himself.
>
> > You might have an episode when some UN delegation coming up and
> > telling the colonists how to run their lives with a typical we
know
> > better than you attitude.
>
> Not sure it would be the UN. It would be whoever is footing the
> bill. If the Island is built by Exxon, then Exxon would be in
> charge; if the US gubmint built it, then some Congressional
> Subcommitee would run the show; and if the UN built it... Really,
> when has the UN tried to "rule" anything? Did they ever suggest
> running Somalia as a UN colony, or any such? The UN doesn't rule
> anything. They are exactly what you called them: bureaucrats.
They
> would load the place up with treaties and regulations, but probably
> couldn't care less if they tried how they picked their leaders.
>
> > These people, as with the left in general, think decisions and
> > power are from the top down rather than listening to the people
> > from whom their power actually comes.
>
> Which is exactly what liberals say about the right. This isn't
> conservative v liberal, it's the nature of power. Anyway, the last
> thing I would want to do with this show is a left v right thing.
Why
> piss off half the audience immediately, no matter which side I
choose?
>
> > One need only look to the news to see this in practice.
> >
> > As for his discouraging colonists, I doubt that thought would even
> > enter their petty little minds. Still I suppose they can be played
> > out for the clowns they are for great humor.
>
> It doesn't have to enter the bureaucrats minds; it only has to
enter
> the minds of the prospective colonists.
>
> > Personally, I find I enjoy a good drama. Something intellectually
> > challenging to the mind.
>
> Yes, these can be good when _Happy Days_ or _Tarzan and the Golden
> Lion_ wear thin. I like comedies for High Frontier stuff because
it
> introduces the idea in a non-treatening way to those who are not
> familiar with it. But there is plenty of room for drama, comedy,
> tragedy, politics, cop shows, porn, war, western-type, and more
> besides.
>
> > In my novel I have an Israili go back in time to prevent the
> > Holocaust. Which hardly provides anyone with any place for humor.
>
> Well, no, that doesn't sound like something that would go well with
a
> laugh track.
>
> > First he assasinates Hitler, then he starts ripping out the
> > machinery from within. While at the same time, there is the war
> > going on. Hardly any place for comedy to be played.
>
> Certainly not laugh-a-minute stuff, but it does sound interesting.
> The implications are huge (i.e., no Holocaust, no Isreal; no
Israel,

After reading this discussion with interest, here is my opinion:

Government: Corporate rules for work conduct and most likely will go into personal life. Think of company mining towns in the late 1800s. Laws from nation sponsoring the project, or International laws.

Crime: low. Most inhabitants will be professionals.

Society: Contract labor. More akin to modern day mining operations in remote locations. For this think of mines near the Atacama Desert or north of the arctic circle in Alaska. In each case, the labor is contract, perhaps for 1 to 4 years. For the station, it would be for longer periods due to cost of employee transportation. In these situations, the companies sponsoring the employees would be responsible for their living expenses and support. The major problems at site are work related and difficulties of getting supplies. There will be families at these locations, but initially far fewer than in a normal Earth-bound town.

Currency: ? Credit. Cash takes mass and that has to be lifted from earth...and in a largely monitored society, credit would be easy to track. However, there may or may not be many opportunities to buy many things with your pay. Consumer items imported from earth would be expensive. No doubt, some amount of transport weight would have to be part of an employees contract.

Technology: Actually, personal tech would probably be less high tech than living on Earth. After all, there is easy access to the latest gadgets and fashion items from stores on earth. In space, the heart of electronics devices (high powered semiconductors) may be precious. Most large items can be manufactured, as can slower computer chips. Until there are many orbiting colonies, manufacturing ability for consumer goods would be very limited. To make the fastest and latest electronic items requires dedicated factories and these may only be built on earth for the foreseeable future due to cost and size. In this vein, a shipment of goods from earth has all the special appeal as a shipment of New York clothes to a small western town in the 1800s.

Food: The ideal may be plentiful plant growth, but there will be some difficulties in this. Just like some stories of isolated communities, sharing will be a requirement if there is ever a time with limited food supplies.

Actually I do not see these colonies operating smoothly initially as they will start as artificial communities. A significant number of "colonists" will not intend to retire there. Most will no doubt intend to work through their contract and then return to earth. One of the impediments to its success might be interference from competing interests (companies, governments, NGOs) trying to gain influence or control of the colony.

Then there is also the matter of investors and their interests and how that would affect the society....

terrierkeeper wrote:Actually it could be much like the wild west.

Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of the
time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James Gangs?
Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
Tombstone.

In addition to which there is one question that will have to be asked
of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the UN
Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to wishes
of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather than
hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
dislike.

The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.

Thent there is crime and punishment.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
>
> > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would have
to
> > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be under
> > developement.
>
> For most of the public, though, starting with the very first Island
> One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
might
> be a bit much for them.
>
> > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront and
how
> > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach that
is
> > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility they
> > might be like the wild west.
>
> I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit, or
in
> the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
Asteroid
> Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would
make
> an interesting setting.
>
> This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
> interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
Ones,
> an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
>
> My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon
for
> kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
(which

Very interesting set of ideas.

Which is probably why I believe things will start getting itneresting
during the Island Two Phase rather than Island One.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Gallimore
wrote:
>
> After reading this discussion with interest, here is my opinion:
>
> Government: Corporate rules for work conduct and most likely will
go into personal life. Think of company mining towns in the late
1800s. Laws from nation sponsoring the project, or International laws.
>
> Crime: low. Most inhabitants will be professionals.
>
> Society: Contract labor. More akin to modern day mining operations
in remote locations. For this think of mines near the Atacama Desert
or north of the arctic circle in Alaska. In each case, the labor is
contract, perhaps for 1 to 4 years. For the station, it would be for
longer periods due to cost of employee transportation. In these
situations, the companies sponsoring the employees would be
responsible for their living expenses and support. The major problems
at site are work related and difficulties of getting supplies. There
will be families at these locations, but initially far fewer than in
a normal Earth-bound town.
>
> Currency: ? Credit. Cash takes mass and that has to be lifted from
earth...and in a largely monitored society, credit would be easy to
track. However, there may or may not be many opportunities to buy
many things with your pay. Consumer items imported from earth would
be expensive. No doubt, some amount of transport weight would have to
be part of an employees contract.
>
> Technology: Actually, personal tech would probably be less high
tech than living on Earth. After all, there is easy access to the
latest gadgets and fashion items from stores on earth. In space, the
heart of electronics devices (high powered semiconductors) may be
precious. Most large items can be manufactured, as can slower
computer chips. Until there are many orbiting colonies, manufacturing
ability for consumer goods would be very limited. To make the
fastest and latest electronic items requires dedicated factories and
these may only be built on earth for the foreseeable future due to
cost and size. In this vein, a shipment of goods from earth has all
the special appeal as a shipment of New York clothes to a small
western town in the 1800s.
>
> Food: The ideal may be plentiful plant growth, but there will be
some difficulties in this. Just like some stories of isolated
communities, sharing will be a requirement if there is ever a time
with limited food supplies.
>
> Actually I do not see these colonies operating smoothly initially
as they will start as artificial communities. A significant number
of "colonists" will not intend to retire there. Most will no doubt
intend to work through their contract and then return to earth. One
of the impediments to its success might be interference from
competing interests (companies, governments, NGOs) trying to gain
influence or control of the colony.
>
> Then there is also the matter of investors and their interests and
how that would affect the society....
>
> terrierkeeper wrote:Actually it could be much like
the wild west.
>
> Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
the
> time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
Gangs?
> Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> Tombstone.
>
> In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
asked
> of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the
UN
> Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
> Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to
wishes
> of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather than
> hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
> writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
> dislike.
>
> The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
>
> Thent there is crime and punishment.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
> >
> > > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would
have
> to
> > > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be
under
> > > developement.
> >
> > For most of the public, though, starting with the very first
Island
> > One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
> might
> > be a bit much for them.
> >
> > > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront
and
> how
> > > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach
that
> is
> > > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility
they
> > > might be like the wild west.
> >
> > I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit, or
> in
> > the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
> Asteroid
> > Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would
> make
> > an interesting setting.
> >
> > This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> > _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
> > interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
> Ones,
> > an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
> >
> > My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon
> for
> > kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> > between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
> (which
> > would have supertech weird science stuff, like giving four young
> > people superpowers).
> >
Service.

A lot of that depends on how the economies of scale play out, both
in the engineering and in the demand for the exportable products of
a space station/colony -- and how the cost of having more available
on-site compares with the cost of transporting people up and down.
With a mining camp in Alaska, it's fairly cheap to transport people
to and from, but expensive to maintain them there. And if it costs
X to maintain a mining camp of forty people, it won't cost that much
less than 2X to maintain one of eighty people. With a space colony,
it's very expensive to send people there and back, so anything you
can do to make longer stays tolerable is likely to pay. And if it
turns out that passive-mass radiation shielding is a major part of
the cost, doubling the size will get you eight times the space for
four times the shielding cost; doubling again will make it 64 for
16. Additional room keeps getting cheaper, up to the largest size
that's structurally feasible with your materials. Weighed against
that, we have the time-is-money effect: the bigger it is, the longer
it will take to build, to some extent, and a payoff sooner is more
valuable than a payoff later.

The other side is the earth-side demand for space-made products.
Even a small colony can refine precious metals from a metallic
asteroid and de-orbit them. Those payloads could probably be pretty
dumb: a silicate ablation shield around a lump of platinum with
enough empty spaces in it (or spaces full of oxygen gas) that it
will float after splash-down. There may be a range of scales where
platinum group metals for fuel-cell catalysts is a more efficient
way to effectively send energy to earth than actual solar power
satellites. The potential demand for platinum is fairly large, but
putting more of it on the market would lower the price
dramatically. I if it's a company rather than a government that
gets the first platinum mining operation going, I expect they'll
sell at monopoly price or just low enough to keep competitors off
the market.

But I don't think we can tell at this point whether it will be a
company or a government that sets up the first colony. More likely
a combination, but what sort of combination is unclear.

>Most inhabitants will be professionals.

Depends. Does a technician overseeing the agricultural equipment
count as a professional? I think there will be a whole lot of
technicians. The first generation will be a highly select group
capable of stepping into different jobs, because that's cheaper than
lifting new people from the ground when there's a change in what
work is needed. But a lot of them will still function as
technicians.

> Currency: ? Credit.

Money will almost certainly be electronic. But the distinction
between credit and other means of payment is timing rather than
mass. I expect debit and credit to both be used, same as here and
now.

>To make the fastest and latest electronic items ...

Moore's law may have taken us all the way to the theoretical limits
by the time we get off the ground in any serious way. So
electronics may be a stable technology.

I think economies of scale are a bigger deal here again. Once you
set up chip production, you can cheaply produce a huge number of the
same chip. I would expect electronics in space to be much more
modular than on the ground: if a computer has a thousand parallel
processors of the same sort that you use five of in a telephone, you
can make them both off the same production line.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Gallimore
wrote:
>
> After reading this discussion with interest, here is my opinion:
>
> Government: Corporate rules for work conduct and most likely will
go into personal life. Think of company mining towns in the late
1800s. Laws from nation sponsoring the project, or International
laws.
>
> Crime: low. Most inhabitants will be professionals.
>
> Society: Contract labor. More akin to modern day mining operations
in remote locations. For this think of mines near the Atacama Desert
or north of the arctic circle in Alaska. In each case, the labor is
contract, perhaps for 1 to 4 years. For the station, it would be for
longer periods due to cost of employee transportation. In these
situations, the companies sponsoring the employees would be
responsible for their living expenses and support. The major
problems at site are work related and difficulties of getting
supplies. There will be families at these locations, but initially
far fewer than in a normal Earth-bound town.
>
> Currency: ? Credit. Cash takes mass and that has to be lifted from
earth...and in a largely monitored society, credit would be easy to
track. However, there may or may not be many opportunities to buy
many things with your pay. Consumer items imported from earth would
be expensive. No doubt, some amount of transport weight would have
to be part of an employees contract.
>
> Technology: Actually, personal tech would probably be less high
tech than living on Earth. After all, there is easy access to the
latest gadgets and fashion items from stores on earth. In space, the
heart of electronics devices (high powered semiconductors) may be
precious. Most large items can be manufactured, as can slower
computer chips. Until there are many orbiting colonies,
manufacturing ability for consumer goods would be very limited. To
make the fastest and latest electronic items requires dedicated
factories and these may only be built on earth for the foreseeable
future due to cost and size. In this vein, a shipment of goods from
earth has all the special appeal as a shipment of New York clothes
to a small western town in the 1800s.
>
> Food: The ideal may be plentiful plant growth, but there will be
some difficulties in this. Just like some stories of isolated
communities, sharing will be a requirement if there is ever a time
with limited food supplies.
>
> Actually I do not see these colonies operating smoothly initially
as they will start as artificial communities. A significant number
of "colonists" will not intend to retire there. Most will no doubt
intend to work through their contract and then return to earth. One
of the impediments to its success might be interference from
competing interests (companies, governments, NGOs) trying to gain
influence or control of the colony.
>
> Then there is also the matter of investors and their interests and
how that would affect the society....
>
> terrierkeeper wrote:Actually it could be much like
the wild west.
>
> Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
the
> time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
Gangs?
> Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> Tombstone.
>
> In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
asked
> of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the
UN
> Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
> Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to
wishes
> of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather
than
> hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
> writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
> dislike.
>
> The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
>
> Thent there is crime and punishment.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
> >
> > > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would
have
> to
> > > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be
under
> > > developement.
> >
> > For most of the public, though, starting with the very first
Island
> > One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
> might
> > be a bit much for them.
> >
> > > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront
and
> how
> > > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach
that
> is
> > > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility
they
> > > might be like the wild west.
> >
> > I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit,
or
> in
> > the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
> Asteroid
> > Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would
> make
> > an interesting setting.
> >
> > This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> > _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
> > interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
> Ones,
> > an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
> >
> > My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon
> for
> > kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> > between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
> (which
> > would have supertech weird science stuff, like giving four young
> > people superpowers).
> >
Service.

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Wylie-Sears

> And if it turns out that passive-mass radiation shielding
> is a major part of the cost, doubling the size will get you
> eight times the space for four times the shielding cost;
> doubling again will make it 64 for 16. Additional room
> keeps getting cheaper, up to the largest size that's
> structurally feasible with your materials.

I would expect the pressure-vessel hull to be a much pricier item per
square meter. But your overall point still holds in that case as well.

Regards,

Mike Combs

> From: Dan Wylie-Sears
> A lot of that depends on how the economies of scale play out,

Just had an odd thought. Run an island 4 as a giant telephone call centre.
With a average wage of $15k, and a population of 10M, the whole thing would
generate ~$15B a year in tax alone. ;)

ANTIcarrot.

Things will be interesting for both Island One and Phase Two. However, the main point I was making was that it will be a rather complex socio-economic system. It will be very different that many science fiction books would describe.

We often minimize the complexity of a modern society. It is a vast connection of supply chains that allow for the manufactured goods we easily can access. In space, the bulk of manufacturing would be for basic material separation. Manufacturing would be mostly for structural components. Customization will be limited. Basic consumer goods would be available, but, in my mind, there would only be a few.

It isn't until we really think of all that we have, that you realize that not ten or twenty of fifty or one hundred factories would suffice to provide us with the consumer goods we have.

In my opinion the vast majority of space based isru activity will be for construction materials and volatiles. The vast majority of space based manufacturing will be for basic components for construction or repair parts for constructed infrastructure. A high priority might be for making space suits, but things like clothing might be made of a standard material that is easily dyed. For that reason, I believe imports from earth, though very expensive, will be much sought after.

terrierkeeper wrote:
Very interesting set of ideas.

Which is probably why I believe things will start getting itneresting
during the Island Two Phase rather than Island One.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Gallimore
wrote:
>
> After reading this discussion with interest, here is my opinion:
>
> Government: Corporate rules for work conduct and most likely will
go into personal life. Think of company mining towns in the late
1800s. Laws from nation sponsoring the project, or International laws.
>
> Crime: low. Most inhabitants will be professionals.
>
> Society: Contract labor. More akin to modern day mining operations
in remote locations. For this think of mines near the Atacama Desert
or north of the arctic circle in Alaska. In each case, the labor is
contract, perhaps for 1 to 4 years. For the station, it would be for
longer periods due to cost of employee transportation. In these
situations, the companies sponsoring the employees would be
responsible for their living expenses and support. The major problems
at site are work related and difficulties of getting supplies. There
will be families at these locations, but initially far fewer than in
a normal Earth-bound town.
>
> Currency: ? Credit. Cash takes mass and that has to be lifted from
earth...and in a largely monitored society, credit would be easy to
track. However, there may or may not be many opportunities to buy
many things with your pay. Consumer items imported from earth would
be expensive. No doubt, some amount of transport weight would have to
be part of an employees contract.
>
> Technology: Actually, personal tech would probably be less high
tech than living on Earth. After all, there is easy access to the
latest gadgets and fashion items from stores on earth. In space, the
heart of electronics devices (high powered semiconductors) may be
precious. Most large items can be manufactured, as can slower
computer chips. Until there are many orbiting colonies, manufacturing
ability for consumer goods would be very limited. To make the
fastest and latest electronic items requires dedicated factories and
these may only be built on earth for the foreseeable future due to
cost and size. In this vein, a shipment of goods from earth has all
the special appeal as a shipment of New York clothes to a small
western town in the 1800s.
>
> Food: The ideal may be plentiful plant growth, but there will be
some difficulties in this. Just like some stories of isolated
communities, sharing will be a requirement if there is ever a time
with limited food supplies.
>
> Actually I do not see these colonies operating smoothly initially
as they will start as artificial communities. A significant number
of "colonists" will not intend to retire there. Most will no doubt
intend to work through their contract and then return to earth. One
of the impediments to its success might be interference from
competing interests (companies, governments, NGOs) trying to gain
influence or control of the colony.
>
> Then there is also the matter of investors and their interests and
how that would affect the society....
>
> terrierkeeper wrote:Actually it could be much like
the wild west.
>
> Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
the
> time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
Gangs?
> Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> Tombstone.
>
> In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
asked
> of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the
UN
> Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
> Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to
wishes
> of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather than
> hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
> writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
> dislike.
>
> The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
>
> Thent there is crime and punishment.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
> wrote:
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
> >
> > > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would
have
> to
> > > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be
under
> > > developement.
> >
> > For most of the public, though, starting with the very first
Island
> > One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
> might
> > be a bit much for them.
> >
> > > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront
and
> how
> > > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach
that
> is
> > > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility
they
> > > might be like the wild west.
> >
> > I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit, or
> in
> > the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
> Asteroid
> > Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase would
> make
> > an interesting setting.
> >
> > This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> > _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for an
> > interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
> Ones,
> > an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
> >
> > My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero cartoon
> for
> > kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> > between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
> (which
> > would have supertech weird science stuff, like giving four young
> > people superpowers).
> >
Service.

> From: Matt Gallimore
> It isn't until we really think of all that we have, that you
> realize that not ten or twenty of fifty or one hundred factories
> would suffice to provide us with the consumer goods we have.

Depends on the kinds of factories. Advances in 3D lithography could reduce
the number of factories needed. I also remember reading about CNC clothing
machines. you might have to acccept everything made out of plastic or
cotton - but you could still have a lot of variety in terms of pattern,
finish, and details. Cutting edge research like printable circuit boards or
microchips might be reality by then too. And in any case it's the future, of
course they won't have the kind of consumer goods we have now. ;)

> In my opinion the vast majority of space based isru activity will
> be for construction materials and volatiles.

At first yes, but in the long run the USSR shows what can happen when you
concentrate too much on heavy industry.

John

Actually, I envision that Island One and early Island Two will
pretty much be like what Survivalists envisioned back when I was a
school boy many years ago when everyone believed Reagan was going to
get us into a nuclear war or that our intelelctually bloated Society
would i mplode and collapse. Most clothing will locally made by hand
with cotton or linnen or hemp grown locally. Dyed locally. Woven
locally on looms assembled on sight that might be hand powered, then
cut and sewn together on local sewing machines.I suppose thesame will
be done with shoes and other things we take for granted. Forget
about gourmet food unless one or two of the colonists knows the
cooking styles. Food will be locally grown and locally processed.
Many things people take for granted won't be available but will have
to be replaced with the technologies that they replaced bbefore. The
actual family as a social economic unit may actually return to
importance.

I suspect early Island Society will look a little bit like early
american colonial society but high tech.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
>
> A lot of that depends on how the economies of scale play out, both
> in the engineering and in the demand for the exportable products of
> a space station/colony -- and how the cost of having more available
> on-site compares with the cost of transporting people up and down.
> With a mining camp in Alaska, it's fairly cheap to transport people
> to and from, but expensive to maintain them there. And if it costs
> X to maintain a mining camp of forty people, it won't cost that
much
> less than 2X to maintain one of eighty people. With a space
colony,
> it's very expensive to send people there and back, so anything you
> can do to make longer stays tolerable is likely to pay. And if it
> turns out that passive-mass radiation shielding is a major part of
> the cost, doubling the size will get you eight times the space for
> four times the shielding cost; doubling again will make it 64 for
> 16. Additional room keeps getting cheaper, up to the largest size
> that's structurally feasible with your materials. Weighed against
> that, we have the time-is-money effect: the bigger it is, the
longer
> it will take to build, to some extent, and a payoff sooner is more
> valuable than a payoff later.
>
> The other side is the earth-side demand for space-made products.
> Even a small colony can refine precious metals from a metallic
> asteroid and de-orbit them. Those payloads could probably be
pretty
> dumb: a silicate ablation shield around a lump of platinum with
> enough empty spaces in it (or spaces full of oxygen gas) that it
> will float after splash-down. There may be a range of scales where
> platinum group metals for fuel-cell catalysts is a more efficient
> way to effectively send energy to earth than actual solar power
> satellites. The potential demand for platinum is fairly large, but
> putting more of it on the market would lower the price
> dramatically. I if it's a company rather than a government that
> gets the first platinum mining operation going, I expect they'll
> sell at monopoly price or just low enough to keep competitors off
> the market.
>
> But I don't think we can tell at this point whether it will be a
> company or a government that sets up the first colony. More likely
> a combination, but what sort of combination is unclear.
>
> >Most inhabitants will be professionals.
>
> Depends. Does a technician overseeing the agricultural equipment
> count as a professional? I think there will be a whole lot of
> technicians. The first generation will be a highly select group
> capable of stepping into different jobs, because that's cheaper
than
> lifting new people from the ground when there's a change in what
> work is needed. But a lot of them will still function as
> technicians.
>
> > Currency: ? Credit.
>
> Money will almost certainly be electronic. But the distinction
> between credit and other means of payment is timing rather than
> mass. I expect debit and credit to both be used, same as here and
> now.
>
> >To make the fastest and latest electronic items ...
>
> Moore's law may have taken us all the way to the theoretical limits
> by the time we get off the ground in any serious way. So
> electronics may be a stable technology.
>
> I think economies of scale are a bigger deal here again. Once you
> set up chip production, you can cheaply produce a huge number of
the
> same chip. I would expect electronics in space to be much more
> modular than on the ground: if a computer has a thousand parallel
> processors of the same sort that you use five of in a telephone,
you
> can make them both off the same production line.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Gallimore
> wrote:
> >
> > After reading this discussion with interest, here is my opinion:
> >
> > Government: Corporate rules for work conduct and most likely will
> go into personal life. Think of company mining towns in the late
> 1800s. Laws from nation sponsoring the project, or International
> laws.
> >
> > Crime: low. Most inhabitants will be professionals.
> >
> > Society: Contract labor. More akin to modern day mining
operations
> in remote locations. For this think of mines near the Atacama
Desert
> or north of the arctic circle in Alaska. In each case, the labor is
> contract, perhaps for 1 to 4 years. For the station, it would be
for
> longer periods due to cost of employee transportation. In these
> situations, the companies sponsoring the employees would be
> responsible for their living expenses and support. The major
> problems at site are work related and difficulties of getting
> supplies. There will be families at these locations, but initially
> far fewer than in a normal Earth-bound town.
> >
> > Currency: ? Credit. Cash takes mass and that has to be lifted
from
> earth...and in a largely monitored society, credit would be easy to
> track. However, there may or may not be many opportunities to buy
> many things with your pay. Consumer items imported from earth would
> be expensive. No doubt, some amount of transport weight would have
> to be part of an employees contract.
> >
> > Technology: Actually, personal tech would probably be less high
> tech than living on Earth. After all, there is easy access to the
> latest gadgets and fashion items from stores on earth. In space,
the
> heart of electronics devices (high powered semiconductors) may be
> precious. Most large items can be manufactured, as can slower
> computer chips. Until there are many orbiting colonies,
> manufacturing ability for consumer goods would be very limited. To
> make the fastest and latest electronic items requires dedicated
> factories and these may only be built on earth for the foreseeable
> future due to cost and size. In this vein, a shipment of goods from
> earth has all the special appeal as a shipment of New York clothes
> to a small western town in the 1800s.
> >
> > Food: The ideal may be plentiful plant growth, but there will be
> some difficulties in this. Just like some stories of isolated
> communities, sharing will be a requirement if there is ever a time
> with limited food supplies.
> >
> > Actually I do not see these colonies operating smoothly initially
> as they will start as artificial communities. A significant number
> of "colonists" will not intend to retire there. Most will no doubt
> intend to work through their contract and then return to earth. One
> of the impediments to its success might be interference from
> competing interests (companies, governments, NGOs) trying to gain
> influence or control of the colony.
> >
> > Then there is also the matter of investors and their interests
and
> how that would affect the society....
> >
> > terrierkeeper wrote:Actually it could be much
like
> the wild west.
> >
> > Little house on the prairie had much in common with the towns of
> the
> > time. But remember what happened to the Cole Younger and James
> Gangs?
> > Or the Daltons? Those farming towns had little in common with
> > Tombstone.
> >
> > In addition to which there is one question that will have to be
> asked
> > of the Space Islands. Who will run the governments? I suspect the
> UN
> > Might try for a power grab and want to run them as International
> > Settlements according to their own rules and with no regard to
> wishes
> > of the inhabitants. They'll want to appoint governments rather
> than
> > hold elections. And if any elections are held they'll insist on
> > writing the Constituitions and veto for any candidate they may
> > dislike.
> >
> > The issue of popular soverenty comes up almost immediately.
> >
> > Thent there is crime and punishment.
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In spacesettlers, "terrierkeeper" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Anyway, I still think the Island Two Phase would be a better
> > > > grounds for a television series. Space Island Society would
> have
> > to
> > > > start forming governments. Diffferent island types would be
> under
> > > > developement.
> > >
> > > For most of the public, though, starting with the very first
> Island
> > > One is a big enough stretch. A whole space-bourn civilization
> > might
> > > be a bit much for them.
> > >
> > > > And then there is Crime which society would have to confront
> and
> > how
> > > > to handle it. I doubt they would have all the soft approach
> that
> > is
> > > > the fad in western civilisation yet there is some possibility
> they
> > > > might be like the wild west.
> > >
> > > I doubt that we will see much of the wild west in Earth orbit,
> or
> > in
> > > the earliest settlements. We might well get it in the Main
> > Asteroid
> > > Belt, though. Of course, this is why the Island Two phase
would
> > make
> > > an interesting setting.
> > >
> > > This would be more _Little House on the High Frontier_ than
> > > _Tombstone in Orbit_. Have to agree that that would make for
an
> > > interesting series, though. After there are a few dozen Island
> > Ones,
> > > an orbital cop (or rescue team) show would be a possibility.
> > >
> > > My other pet project (High Frontier-wise) is a superhero
cartoon
> > for
> > > kids, with space pirates and mysterious aliens and a clear line
> > > between HumanTech (which would be ultra-hard SF) and AlienTech
> > (which
> > > would have supertech weird science stuff, like giving four
young

I liked your response. Actually, after sending the previous email, I did start to think about rapid prototyping. These are complicated machines, but, given another 50 years, they would have significantly more capability than polystyrene, ABS plastic or wax. As for printed circuit boards, you are right, in 50 years we could see some impressive things there. They may never be close to what we have in fast computer chip today, but we are not that efficient in how we use computer power either.... While on the subject of advances, even advances in organic LEDs for paper that could be a video display would have a big effect on lifestyle and equipment that we can use.

Now, having said all that.. there is still the point you made about limited material feedstocks. This will give people a pallet of materials from which to make what they can.

Now, I believe most technological hurdles (launching systems, transportation, environmental control systems) will be addressed, easily or not, in future with or without huge government funding. The only bottleneck to permanent presence in space is mineral / material beneficiation. This is what limits what basestocks are available with which to make almost everything...

"ANTIcarrot." wrote:
> From: Matt Gallimore
> It isn't until we really think of all that we have, that you
> realize that not ten or twenty of fifty or one hundred factories
> would suffice to provide us with the consumer goods we have.

Depends on the kinds of factories. Advances in 3D lithography could reduce
the number of factories needed. I also remember reading about CNC clothing
machines. you might have to acccept everything made out of plastic or
cotton - but you could still have a lot of variety in terms of pattern,
finish, and details. Cutting edge research like printable circuit boards or
microchips might be reality by then too. And in any case it's the future, of
course they won't have the kind of consumer goods we have now. ;)

> In my opinion the vast majority of space based isru activity will
> be for construction materials and volatiles.

At first yes, but in the long run the USSR shows what can happen when you
concentrate too much on heavy industry.

John