1 (current)
2
# 7168 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 16, 2005, 4:04 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
One of the things I have been thinking about lately is that in the
future people will be paid electrincly, with most transactions being
done through credit or debit cards. It came to me that in the future
people will be taxed electronicly. The government taking what they want
in advance.
American pays Half their income out in taxes. All our politicians know
how to do is Spend the people's money. Fiscal discipline just does not
come to their minds.
This could be a peticularly big source of anger for Colonists in the
future if they're subject to colonial governments who might regard them
as cash cows.
# 7169 bymikecombs@... on Nov. 16, 2005, 4:34 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of terrierkeeper
> Colonists in the future if they're subject to colonial
> governments who might regard them as cash cows.
Yeah, especially if the colonists have no representation in the mother government.
Whoa. Dj vu.
Regards,
Mike Combs
# 7170 bylucioc@... on Nov. 16, 2005, 6:38 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> One of the things I have been thinking about lately is that in the
> future people will be paid electrincly, with most transactions being
> done through credit or debit cards. It came to me that in the future
> people will be taxed electronicly. The government taking what they want
> in advance.
horrendous tax called CPMF, which is applied over *any* bank
transaction done though any bank. (In the end, banks account that
electronically, so it is an electronically collected tax even in the
few cases were the transaction is originally bound to a paper - like a
check.) This tax is used not only to create yet another source of cash
for the unsatisfiable appetite of the government; it is also used as a
way to *track* how much money a person really has. So if someone
declares to the government a value X as his or her income and the
government, by checking the total amount of CPMF collections for that
person, infer a much higher value Y, then that person is likely to be
hiding money from the government.
I would say that there may be even a preference for transactions in
cash nowadays in Brazil due to that tax, and I even wonder if the
government someday will not "abolish" cash and only electronic
transactions will be possible. (Of course that situation is not
implementable in practice. The only thing that the government would
gain with such a move would be the rapid "spontaneous generation" of
some sort of people-made "cash" - gold tablets?)
(...)
> This could be a peticularly big source of anger for Colonists in the
> future if they're subject to colonial governments who might regard them
> as cash cows.
(...)
I think that it is already a big source of anger nowadays, when the
tax load in many, many countries (including Third World ones like
mine) is high enough to be simply unheard-of in all human history
previous to the 20th Century.
# 7171 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 16, 2005, 8:52 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Actually what you're talking about is called Barter. Basicly people
swap things with each other for what they want. It was basicly the
currency of Colonial America becasue whenever British America got its
hands on coins, British officials made sure those coins found ther
way to britain.
society with all transactions electronic in which Government can tax
automaticly its people. If a man is paid, income and Social Security
taxes automaticly deducted, along with any form of tax some burocrat
cares to assign. Buy something, sales taxes and value added taxes.
The there are government fees such as the Phone tax. Make a phone
call, a person is billed to fill governmetn coffers. That is what I
see.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Lucio de Souza Coelho
wrote:
>
> On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> > One of the things I have been thinking about lately is that in the
> > future people will be paid electrincly, with most transactions
being
> > done through credit or debit cards. It came to me that in the
future
> > people will be taxed electronicly. The government taking what
they want
> > in advance.
>
> This is already happening. Here in Brazil for instance there is the
> horrendous tax called CPMF, which is applied over *any* bank
> transaction done though any bank. (In the end, banks account that
> electronically, so it is an electronically collected tax even in the
> few cases were the transaction is originally bound to a paper -
like a
> check.) This tax is used not only to create yet another source of
cash
> for the unsatisfiable appetite of the government; it is also used
as a
> way to *track* how much money a person really has. So if someone
> declares to the government a value X as his or her income and the
> government, by checking the total amount of CPMF collections for
that
> person, infer a much higher value Y, then that person is likely to
be
> hiding money from the government.
>
> I would say that there may be even a preference for transactions in
> cash nowadays in Brazil due to that tax, and I even wonder if the
> government someday will not "abolish" cash and only electronic
> transactions will be possible. (Of course that situation is not
> implementable in practice. The only thing that the government would
> gain with such a move would be the rapid "spontaneous generation" of
> some sort of people-made "cash" - gold tablets?)
>
> (...)
> > This could be a peticularly big source of anger for Colonists in
the
> > future if they're subject to colonial governments who might
regard them
# 7172 bylucioc@... on Nov. 16, 2005, 9:41 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
(...)
> But I do believe, ONE of these days there may come the Cashless
> society with all transactions electronic in which Government can tax
> automaticly its people. If a man is paid, income and Social Security
> taxes automaticly deducted, along with any form of tax some burocrat
> cares to assign. Buy something, sales taxes and value added taxes.
> The there are government fees such as the Phone tax. Make a phone
> call, a person is billed to fill governmetn coffers. That is what I
> see.
(...)
is officially cashless in the sense that all money will be electronic
and therefore an easy prey for the government. Extra-officially,
though, in practice people will invent their own "cashful" economic
system and informal economy that will evade completely monitoring by
the government. BTW, some estimate that informal economy in Brazil
represents already over 50% of our PIB, which is clearly a response of
the population to our abusive (for Third World standards) tax load.
In short, a government that overtaxes citizens is simply condemning
itself to a slow death by starvation due to massive and widespread tax
evasion.
# 7173 bydante_feditech@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 12:23 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> From: terrierkeeper
> One of the things I have been thinking about lately is that in the
> future if they're subject to colonial governments who might regard them
> as cash cows.
Let me get this straight - you *like* filling in multiple tax forms in
triplicate at the end of each year? Because with an electronic tax (like in
the UK) you don't need to. And I kinda thought the idea that colonies could
generate money was touted as a reason to build them in the first place.
John.
# 7174 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 12:37 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
No. And I don't think that will change at all.
before you do. No to mention their ability to watch how you spend it
at every level.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "ANTIcarrot."
wrote:
>
> > From: terrierkeeper
> > One of the things I have been thinking about lately is that in the
>
> > This could be a peticularly big source of anger for Colonists in
the
> > future if they're subject to colonial governments who might
regard them
> > as cash cows.
>
> Let me get this straight - you *like* filling in multiple tax forms
in
> triplicate at the end of each year? Because with an electronic tax
(like in
> the UK) you don't need to. And I kinda thought the idea that
colonies could
> generate money was touted as a reason to build them in the first
place.
# 7175 bydante_feditech@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 1:05 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> From:terrierkeeper
> What I am contemplating is Government being able to get at your money
> before you do.
takes the taxes out of my wages before it gets into my account.
> No to mention their ability to watch how you spend it
> at every level.
What makes you think they can't already? They can look at your acccount with
a court order, or merely buy the information from any number of companies
who can do a better job of collected it than they can.
John
# 7176 bydsw_s@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 1:57 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Income tax is paid by withholding in the US, too. The employer
sends money (electronically, of course) to the government. Most
people claim less exemption on their W-4 than they're entitled to,
so that they'll have a refund at the end of the year -- partly
because it's a painless way of putting aside some savings, and
partly because if your paperwork gets screwed up you're better off
with a late refund than being in hot water for not having paid your
taxes.
wrote:
>
> > From:terrierkeeper
> > What I am contemplating is Government being able to get at your
money
> > before you do.
>
> What part of 'like in the UK' seemed ambigous to you? :) The
government
> takes the taxes out of my wages before it gets into my account.
>
> > No to mention their ability to watch how you spend it
> > at every level.
>
> What makes you think they can't already? They can look at your
acccount with
> a court order, or merely buy the information from any number of
companies
# 7177 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 2:29 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Do you forward the tax you should pay on the income you pay the boy
to mow your lawn or shovel the snow off your driveway? What about the
income you give the girl to look after your kids when you're
elsewhere? How's about sales tax on yard sales?
With electronic cash, which I am talking about, they can do so
automaticly and even up your rates on the spot on some burocrat's
policy whim. This is what I am thinking of.
And remember with electronic cash they have access to records on ALL
your transactions.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
>
> Income tax is paid by withholding in the US, too. The employer
> sends money (electronically, of course) to the government. Most
> people claim less exemption on their W-4 than they're entitled to,
> so that they'll have a refund at the end of the year -- partly
> because it's a painless way of putting aside some savings, and
> partly because if your paperwork gets screwed up you're better off
> with a late refund than being in hot water for not having paid your
> taxes.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "ANTIcarrot."
> wrote:
> From:terrierkeeper
# 7178 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 7:13 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
How's about the tip you give the pizza delivery person or the waitor
or waitress who serves your table at some resteraunt.
ralative to tide things over for a couple of days.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "terrierkeeper"
>
> Do you forward the tax you should pay on the income you pay the boy
> to mow your lawn or shovel the snow off your driveway? What about
the
> income you give the girl to look after your kids when you're
> elsewhere? How's about sales tax on yard sales?
>
> I am sure you can come up with other scenerios like these.
>
> With electronic cash, which I am talking about, they can do so
> automaticly and even up your rates on the spot on some burocrat's
> policy whim. This is what I am thinking of.
>
> And remember with electronic cash they have access to records on
ALL
> your transactions.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
> wrote:
> >
> > Income tax is paid by withholding in the US, too. The employer
> > sends money (electronically, of course) to the government. Most
> > people claim less exemption on their W-4 than they're entitled
to,
> > so that they'll have a refund at the end of the year -- partly
> > because it's a painless way of putting aside some savings, and
> > partly because if your paperwork gets screwed up you're better
off
> > with a late refund than being in hot water for not having paid
your
> > taxes.
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "ANTIcarrot."
> > wrote:
> > From:terrierkeeper
> > > > What I am contemplating is Government being able to get at
your
# 7179 bylucioc@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 8:05 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
On 11/17/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> How's about the tip you give the pizza delivery person or the waitor
> or waitress who serves your table at some resteraunt.
donated as part of the bill. The balance of the restaurant would
transfer the total tips of the week or month to the bank account of
the employee - and government would suck a part of the money in the
process.
> How's about a user fee if you borrow a few dollars from a friend or
> ralative to tide things over for a couple of days.
Transfer to bank account. Interestingly, *everyone* would have to have
a bank account, even children.
And no, I don't think that this system is practical.
# 7180 bydante_feditech@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 8:27 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> From: terrierkeeper
> With electronic cash, which I am talking about, they can do so
> automaticly and even up your rates on the spot on some burocrat's
> policy whim. This is what I am thinking of.
to the internet, a merely local government would have no control over it,
and hence would not be able to track and/or tax it. It is also not illegial
to print your own money - providing you're not trying to copy someone else's
design. Hence Disney Dollar's are actually legal tender. ;) All you'd need
is a large enough consumer base to support your monetary system and it could
be commercially workable. which is kind of how pay-pall works in the first
place...
As things stand, I don't think real-money is going to dissapear any time
before people stop needing it.
John
# 7181 bylevi1_ca@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 9:49 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
unfortunately there is no way around electronic money in space - you
do not carry several tons of precious metals around just because you
want to ( transportation cost) paper money is only as good as the
trust people have in it - would you trust paper money while on the
belt?? it may be a while to iron out the bugs but a can see a booming
black market and barter system outside of government control - and who
is government control? (U.S. , U.K. , China, Japan, India, Russia, or
any other entity who has a presence in space no matter how small)??
# 7182 bygiogavir@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 10:18 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
By the time that space settlements will be around,
money as we know it will be non existent.
Currency transactions will occur by remote transfer
through an injected nanochip on a person connected to
his bank account.
Everything will be recorded for future reference.
It already started in Japan by using celluar phones
for money payments
--- levi1_ca ha scritto:
in space - you
do not carry several tons of precious metals around
just because you
want to ( transportation cost) paper money is only as
good as the
trust people have in it - would you trust paper money
while on the
belt?? it may be a while to iron out the bugs but a
can see a booming
black market and barter system outside of government
control - and who
is government control? (U.S. , U.K. , China, Japan,
India, Russia, or
any other entity who has a presence in space no matter
how small)??
# 7183 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 10:43 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In order to register for the Draft I had to have a social security
number. I didn't have one at the time. I had to fill out a form to
begin the process. And what is Social Security, it's a big bank that
American Politicians pilfer at will, 'loan' it to themselves and then
count the IOu as an asset to 'barrow' more money against. I suppose
Kids would be required to register under their parents banks.
Politicians are crooks. All most of them know how to to do is spend
money that doesn't belong to them. To them people are just cash cows
to milk.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Lucio de Souza Coelho
wrote:
>
> On 11/17/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> > How's about the tip you give the pizza delivery person or the
waitor
> > or waitress who serves your table at some resteraunt.
>
> In this electronic money country, tip would likely to be regulated
and
> donated as part of the bill. The balance of the restaurant would
> transfer the total tips of the week or month to the bank account of
> the employee - and government would suck a part of the money in the
> process.
>
> > How's about a user fee if you borrow a few dollars from a friend
or
> > ralative to tide things over for a couple of days.
>
> Transfer to bank account. Interestingly, *everyone* would have to
have
# 7184 byhappygallimore@... on Nov. 17, 2005, 11:04 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
"ANTIcarrot." wrote:
"A version of pay-pall would get around that. Once the money was transfered
to the internet, a merely local government would have no control over it,
and hence would not be able to track and/or tax it. "
With more powerful computers and maturity in Internet infrastructure ("regulation") I would not be surprised if even a local government finds a way to get compensated for transactions conducted partly within their jurisdictions.
# 7185 bydante_feditech@... on Nov. 18, 2005, 11:32 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> From: Matt Gallimore
> With more powerful computers and maturity in Internet
> infrastructure ("regulation") I would not be surprised if even a
> local government finds a way to get compensated for transactions
> conducted partly within their jurisdictions.
only controls top level domains and baulk IP assignments. With minor
changes, the internet can run without ICAAN, and to a large extent the
existing internet would function quite happily if that organisations 'dot
servers' went down for an extended period of time. Once it sells a chunk of
IP address it looses control of what they are used for. This is why it can't
wave a magic wand and shut down all the sites that certian political groups
would like them to.
For such regulation to happen, a country would have to cut themselves off
from the rest of the internet, or every country in the world has to agree to
play by exactly the same rules. I don't really see first happening in a
western democracy, and don't really see the latter happening period! ;)
John
# 7186 byvolatilis_leo@... on Nov. 20, 2005, 4:20 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
The current net worth of just the U.S. is quite far into the ten's of
trillions, and only about 800 billion is in printed cash, perhaps a great
deal less. The vast majority of transactions in this country, and indeed the
world, are conducted electronically already, and have been for some time.
All substantiative transactions certainly are. Cash transactions are
trivial in comparison, and provide anonymity only to those who are willing
to forgoe many of the convenieces of civilization - Ted Kaczynski, for
instance.
# 7187 bydsw_s@... on Nov. 20, 2005, 4:36 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> provide anonymity only to those who are willing to forgoe many of
> the convenieces of civilization - Ted Kaczynski, for instance.
transactions than non-organized people like Ted.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Valens Agnitio"
wrote:
>
> The current net worth of just the U.S. is quite far into the ten's
of
> trillions, and only about 800 billion is in printed cash, perhaps
a great
> deal less. The vast majority of transactions in this country, and
indeed the
> world, are conducted electronically already, and have been for
some time.
> All substantiative transactions certainly are. Cash transactions
are
> trivial in comparison, and provide anonymity only to those who are
willing
> to forgoe many of the convenieces of civilization - Ted
Kaczynski, for
> instance.
>
> >From: Lucio de Souza Coelho
> >Reply-To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> >To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Re: TAXES
> >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:40:29 -0200
> >
> >On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> >(...)
> > > But I do believe, ONE of these days there may come the Cashless
> > > society with all transactions electronic in which Government
can tax
> > > automaticly its people. If a man is paid, income and Social
Security
> > > taxes automaticly deducted, along with any form of tax some
burocrat
> > > cares to assign. Buy something, sales taxes and value added
taxes.
> > > The there are government fees such as the Phone tax. Make a
phone
> > > call, a person is billed to fill governmetn coffers. That is
what I
> > > see.
> >(...)
> >
> >Maybe I was not clear... Perhaps there will soon exist a society
that
> >is officially cashless in the sense that all money will be
electronic
> >and therefore an easy prey for the government. Extra-officially,
> >though, in practice people will invent their own "cashful"
economic
> >system and informal economy that will evade completely monitoring
by
> >the government. BTW, some estimate that informal economy in Brazil
> >represents already over 50% of our PIB, which is clearly a
response of
> >the population to our abusive (for Third World standards) tax
load.
> >
> >In short, a government that overtaxes citizens is simply
condemning
> >itself to a slow death by starvation due to massive and
widespread tax
# 7188 bydinmont2@... on Nov. 20, 2005, 5:49 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Much of what curently passes for 'civilisation' Sucks.
like to go off on my own and occasionaly indulge myself with an
anynomous purchase. I must admit one thing the Internet has done is
the number of Book Fairs has gone down. The one at Timonium no longer
happens. I was rather looking forward to seeing if any of the Book
merchants might be marketing my novel. Something to strike up a
conversation with. I like the up close work world. None of the book
merchants marketing my novel I have sent e-mails to have returned my
messages. Not one has told me what they think of it. What people
coming into their establishments who look it over think of it. I miss
casually chatting business of books with people who are enthusiastic
about their subjects. The internet and modern 'civilisation' are
doing away with all that.
Another good thing about Cash is that you see yourself spending it.
Which makes spending hard earned dollars painful. Many of the kids I
went to the local community collage spent themselves into debt with
their first credit cards. I like cash. I like writing checks. They
give you the means to see your money go. Which makes it hurt. Which
makes keeping a budget easier than with a credit card or electonic
mony. You think congress people have trouble keeping a budget since
they're spending everybody else's money, get a credit card. They're
a quick way to get into debt.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
>
> > provide anonymity only to those who are willing to forgoe many of
> > the convenieces of civilization - Ted Kaczynski, for instance.
>
> I expect organized crime is a much larger source of cash
> transactions than non-organized people like Ted.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Valens Agnitio"
> wrote:
> >
> > The current net worth of just the U.S. is quite far into the
ten's
> of
> > trillions, and only about 800 billion is in printed cash, perhaps
> a great
> > deal less. The vast majority of transactions in this country, and
> indeed the
> > world, are conducted electronically already, and have been for
> some time.
> > All substantiative transactions certainly are. Cash transactions
> are
> > trivial in comparison, and provide anonymity only to those who
are
> willing
> > to forgoe many of the convenieces of civilization - Ted
> Kaczynski, for
> > instance.
> >
> > >From: Lucio de Souza Coelho
> > >Reply-To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Re: TAXES
> > >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:40:29 -0200
> > >
> > >On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> > >(...)
> > > > But I do believe, ONE of these days there may come the
Cashless
> > > > society with all transactions electronic in which Government
> can tax
> > > > automaticly its people. If a man is paid, income and Social
> Security
> > > > taxes automaticly deducted, along with any form of tax some
> burocrat
> > > > cares to assign. Buy something, sales taxes and value added
> taxes.
> > > > The there are government fees such as the Phone tax. Make a
> phone
> > > > call, a person is billed to fill governmetn coffers. That is
> what I
> > > > see.
> > >(...)
> > >
> > >Maybe I was not clear... Perhaps there will soon exist a society
> that
> > >is officially cashless in the sense that all money will be
> electronic
> > >and therefore an easy prey for the government. Extra-officially,
> > >though, in practice people will invent their own "cashful"
> economic
> > >system and informal economy that will evade completely
monitoring
> by
> > >the government. BTW, some estimate that informal economy in
Brazil
# 7189 bydsw_s@... on Nov. 21, 2005, 3:19 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
> You think congress people have trouble keeping a budget since
> they're spending everybody else's money, get a credit card.
> They're a quick way to get into debt.
we've got borrow-and-spend conservatives spending everyone else's
money on credit, we find out that the two effects are more than
additive.
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "terrierkeeper"
wrote:
>
> Much of what curently passes for 'civilisation' Sucks.
>
> Though I doubt this has relevence with any future Space Colony, I
> like to go off on my own and occasionaly indulge myself with an
> anynomous purchase. I must admit one thing the Internet has done
is
> the number of Book Fairs has gone down. The one at Timonium no
longer
> happens. I was rather looking forward to seeing if any of the Book
> merchants might be marketing my novel. Something to strike up a
> conversation with. I like the up close work world. None of the
book
> merchants marketing my novel I have sent e-mails to have returned
my
> messages. Not one has told me what they think of it. What people
> coming into their establishments who look it over think of it. I
miss
> casually chatting business of books with people who are
enthusiastic
> about their subjects. The internet and modern 'civilisation' are
> doing away with all that.
>
> Another good thing about Cash is that you see yourself spending
it.
> Which makes spending hard earned dollars painful. Many of the
kids I
> went to the local community collage spent themselves into debt
with
> their first credit cards. I like cash. I like writing checks. They
> give you the means to see your money go. Which makes it hurt.
Which
> makes keeping a budget easier than with a credit card or electonic
> mony. You think congress people have trouble keeping a budget
since
> they're spending everybody else's money, get a credit card.
They're
> a quick way to get into debt.
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Wylie-Sears"
> wrote:
> >
> > > provide anonymity only to those who are willing to forgoe many
of
> > > the convenieces of civilization - Ted Kaczynski, for instance.
> >
> > I expect organized crime is a much larger source of cash
> > transactions than non-organized people like Ted.
> >
> > --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Valens Agnitio"
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > The current net worth of just the U.S. is quite far into the
> ten's
> > of
> > > trillions, and only about 800 billion is in printed cash,
perhaps
> > a great
> > > deal less. The vast majority of transactions in this country,
and
> > indeed the
> > > world, are conducted electronically already, and have been for
> > some time.
> > > All substantiative transactions certainly are. Cash
transactions
> > are
> > > trivial in comparison, and provide anonymity only to those who
> are
> > willing
> > > to forgoe many of the convenieces of civilization - Ted
> > Kaczynski, for
> > > instance.
> > >
> > > >From: Lucio de Souza Coelho
> > > >Reply-To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Re: TAXES
> > > >Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2005 19:40:29 -0200
> > > >
> > > >On 11/16/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> > > >(...)
> > > > > But I do believe, ONE of these days there may come the
> Cashless
> > > > > society with all transactions electronic in which
Government
> > can tax
> > > > > automaticly its people. If a man is paid, income and
Social
> > Security
> > > > > taxes automaticly deducted, along with any form of tax
some
> > burocrat
> > > > > cares to assign. Buy something, sales taxes and value
added
> > taxes.
> > > > > The there are government fees such as the Phone tax. Make
a
> > phone
> > > > > call, a person is billed to fill governmetn coffers. That
is
> > what I
> > > > > see.
> > > >(...)
> > > >
> > > >Maybe I was not clear... Perhaps there will soon exist a
society
> > that
> > > >is officially cashless in the sense that all money will be
> > electronic
> > > >and therefore an easy prey for the government. Extra-
officially,
# 7190 bylucioc@... on Nov. 21, 2005, 5:18 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
On 11/20/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
(...)
> Another good thing about Cash is that you see yourself spending it.
> Which makes spending hard earned dollars painful. Many of the kids I
> went to the local community collage spent themselves into debt with
> their first credit cards. I like cash. I like writing checks. They
> give you the means to see your money go. Which makes it hurt. Which
> makes keeping a budget easier than with a credit card or electonic
> mony. You think congress people have trouble keeping a budget since
> they're spending everybody else's money, get a credit card. They're
> a quick way to get into debt.
(...)
evolutionary reason for this tendency to go into debt when dealing
with e-money. Our sense of quantity and value evolved to evaluate
small discrete quantities of entities often of different "weights" and
"values". Say, "three fishes, two rabbits and one buffalo". That sense
of quantity works perfectly when dealing with more modern entities
like "three pennies, two quarters and a hundred dollar bill". (I think
that bills of higher values should even be bigger to reinforce the
analogy even more efficiently.) However, when people see seemingly
meaningless numbers like "2785,27" and "-278,12" in their credit card
bills and bank balances that natural sense of quantity simply does not
work. I have even vast anecdotal evidence that people whose profession
does not involve mathematics often don't even have quantitative notion
of orders of magnitude (!!!) when dealing with purely numerical
values...
# 7191 byqwerty172@... on Nov. 21, 2005, 5:25 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
It still is a mute point. The local government can collect the taxes
when you use the countries legal currency to purchase the paypal money
or any other type of money. Once you have the paypal money do as you
please the taxes are already paid. Also if this becomes too big of a
problem, there is nothing stopping the local authorities from banning
purchase of pay pal money or the outright closing of the organization.
barter online in my local area (mostly services, but used, and
sometimes new commodity where normal) and when the organization became
just a little to lucrative the Federal government raided on tax fraud
and that was the end of that. I don't know what happened to the
principals of the company, but they had enough data on everyone
participating to also charge them if they so desired. They did not.
The black and grey markets have been around for centuries, but when
they become an obvious nuicence to the local authorities the
authorities generally send in the goons.
Bill
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "ANTIcarrot."
wrote:
>
> > From: Matt Gallimore
> > With more powerful computers and maturity in Internet
> > infrastructure ("regulation") I would not be surprised if even a
> > local government finds a way to get compensated for transactions
> > conducted partly within their jurisdictions.
>
> ICAAN does not have the god like powers people seem to think it has. It
> only controls top level domains and baulk IP assignments. With minor
> changes, the internet can run without ICAAN, and to a large extent the
> existing internet would function quite happily if that organisations
'dot
> servers' went down for an extended period of time. Once it sells a
chunk of
> IP address it looses control of what they are used for. This is why
it can't
> wave a magic wand and shut down all the sites that certian political
groups
> would like them to.
>
> For such regulation to happen, a country would have to cut
themselves off
> from the rest of the internet, or every country in the world has to
agree to
# 7192 byxenophile2002@... on Nov. 21, 2005, 7:05 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
--- In spacesettlers, "Bill" wrote:
> when you use the countries legal currency to purchase the paypal
> money or any other type of money.
I suppose they can at that.
> Once you have the paypal money do as you please the taxes are
> already paid.
Well, as long as they don't tax it out of existance, so what?
Governments need movey to build roads.
> Also if this becomes too big of a problem, there is nothing
> stopping the local authorities from banning purchase of pay pal
Might be tough to enforce, but yeah, if they can ban a chemical
almost the same as that found in nutmeg just because they don't like
the idea of people having fun, then they can ban the buying of pay
pal. Then again, look how effective the ban on happiness chemicals
has (not) been.
> money or the outright closing of the organization.
I doubt that the government of Texas can shut down a company in Tokyo.
> I, in Canada, was part of a online organization that did explicitly
> barter online in my local area (mostly services, but used, and
> sometimes new commodity where normal) and when the organization
> became just a little to lucrative the Federal government raided on
> tax fraud and that was the end of that.
Feds overriding locals. Not locals overriding the whole world (much
less the entire Solar System).
> I don't know what happened to the principals of the company, but
> they had enough data on everyone participating to also charge them
> if they so desired. They did not.
This is the scary part. The government shouts "CHILD PORNAGRAPHY!!"
or, in these post 9/11 days, "TERRORISTS!!!" and people willfully
give away all rights to privacy. Most of the information gathered on
people has nothing to do with stopping kiddy porn or terrorists, but
it is very useful for this kind of thing, as well as for stifling
political dissent. Let anybody suggest this and "YOU'RE A PEDIFILE
PERVERT ON THE SIDE OF THE TERRORISTS!!!!!!!!!!"
> The black and grey markets have been around for centuries, but when
> they become an obvious nuicence to the local authorities the
> authorities generally send in the goons.
>
> Bill
Local authorities can only send in local goons to supress local
nuisances in local areas. The Dallas cops can do little about the
most hideously obnoxious person in Beijing.
1 (current)
2