> I am thinking here about the "small fast ships" (or boats,
> whatever, I never caught the subtlety between those two words in
> English),

To start with, a ship is big and a boat is small. But when the
words ship and boat are used as parts of phrases of compound words,
they don't change with the size. So for example, the vessel from
which a fleet is commanded is the flagship: it would never be
the "flagboat" even if it were a two-person rubber raft.

The verb meanings are different: boating is recreational activity
involving boats, and shipping is transporting freight by water. So
a small freighter would be likely to be called a ship, whereas a
large yacht might be called a boat. But the words are often used
interchangeably, as long as they're not part of a compound word.

Because of the compound word "spaceship", it would be unusual for
any spacecraft to be called a boat.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Lucio de Souza Coelho
wrote:
>
> On 11/27/05, terrierkeeper wrote:
> (...)
> > Where ever mankind dwells there will always be war.
>
> Agreed.
>
> > I suspect armed space ships will be a lot like modern day
submarines
> > except their crews will operate in zero gravity.
>
> I tend to agree here too. I would also think that
those "submarines"
> would not have passive shielding (though perhaps they would have
some
> form of light active shielding) for improving speed and maneuver
> capacity. (That would expose the "sailors" to higher doses of space
> radiation but somehow an increase of the risk of cancer 30 years in
> the future seems pale in face of the risk of being nuked in a few
> hours.)
>
> I am thinking here about the "small fast ships" (or boats,
whatever, I
> never caught the subtlety between those two words in English),
which I

On 11/28/05, Dan Wylie-Sears wrote:
(...)
> To start with, a ship is big and a boat is small.

I had felt that, but I am not sure about the "threshold" for calling
something a ship or a boat. For instance, sometimes I have seen
submarines being called "boats", but there are big submarines with
crew over one hundred...

> But when the
> words ship and boat are used as parts of phrases of compound words,
> they don't change with the size. So for example, the vessel from
> which a fleet is commanded is the flagship: it would never be
> the "flagboat" even if it were a two-person rubber raft.
>
> The verb meanings are different: boating is recreational activity
> involving boats, and shipping is transporting freight by water. So
> a small freighter would be likely to be called a ship, whereas a
> large yacht might be called a boat. But the words are often used
> interchangeably, as long as they're not part of a compound word.
>
> Because of the compound word "spaceship", it would be unusual for
> any spacecraft to be called a boat.
(...)

Thanks for that explanation on compound names, that was very clarifying.

Submarines are a special case. It's all about tradition, decending from the
German usage Unterseeboot, or "U-Boat". (Did I spell that even remotely
right?). So all subs are called "boats" in English speaking Navies, even if
they are bigger than many ships. For surface craft, it is a general rule
that a boat is a boat if it can be carried on a ship.

When you get to space vessels, there's an extra twist. Most current
spacecraft are also aircraft, so aviation terminology gets thrown into the
mix. A lot of aviation terms come from nautical ones via a complex
evolution, so they collide back together again in space. At one time, it
was common to refer to aircraft as "ships", but this usage faded with time.

Most often, for non-fictional craft, the designers make up new terms to name
the vehicles in a strictly descriptive manner. Like: capsule, orbiter,
re-entry vehicle, lunar lander, space station, or sattelite. The latest
trend is towards descriptive acronyms, like LRV, UAV, etc. Very seldom is a
current space vessel refered to as a "ship", especially since so many
space-vehicle operators are from the Air Forces. On occasion, a pilot may
use the term of endearment "bird", especially if his vehicle has wings
(which only the space shuttle and Spaceship One do now).

On 11/28/05, Lucio de Souza Coelho wrote:

> German usage Unterseeboot, or "U-Boat". (Did I spell that even
remotely
> right?).

No idea about the spelling. That's part of why I didn't mention the
term myself.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Alexander Roderick
wrote:
>
> Submarines are a special case. It's all about tradition,
decending from the
> German usage Unterseeboot, or "U-Boat". (Did I spell that even
remotely
> right?). So all subs are called "boats" in English speaking
Navies, even if
> they are bigger than many ships. For surface craft, it is a
general rule
> that a boat is a boat if it can be carried on a ship.
>
> When you get to space vessels, there's an extra twist. Most
current
> spacecraft are also aircraft, so aviation terminology gets thrown
into the
> mix. A lot of aviation terms come from nautical ones via a complex
> evolution, so they collide back together again in space. At one
time, it
> was common to refer to aircraft as "ships", but this usage faded
with time.
>
> Most often, for non-fictional craft, the designers make up new
terms to name
> the vehicles in a strictly descriptive manner. Like: capsule,
orbiter,
> re-entry vehicle, lunar lander, space station, or sattelite. The
latest
> trend is towards descriptive acronyms, like LRV, UAV, etc. Very
seldom is a
> current space vessel refered to as a "ship", especially since so
many
> space-vehicle operators are from the Air Forces. On occasion, a
pilot may
> use the term of endearment "bird", especially if his vehicle has
wings
> (which only the space shuttle and Spaceship One do now).
>
> On 11/28/05, Lucio de Souza Coelho wrote:
> >
> > On 11/28/05, Dan Wylie-Sears wrote:
> > (...)
> > > To start with, a ship is big and a boat is small.
> >
> > I had felt that, but I am not sure about the "threshold" for
calling
> > something a ship or a boat. For instance, sometimes I have seen
> > submarines being called "boats", but there are big submarines
with
> > crew over one hundred...
> >
> > > But when the
> > > words ship and boat are used as parts of phrases of compound
words,
> > > they don't change with the size. So for example, the vessel
from
> > > which a fleet is commanded is the flagship: it would never be
> > > the "flagboat" even if it were a two-person rubber raft.
> > >
> > > The verb meanings are different: boating is recreational
activity
> > > involving boats, and shipping is transporting freight by
water. So
> > > a small freighter would be likely to be called a ship, whereas
a
> > > large yacht might be called a boat. But the words are often
used
> > > interchangeably, as long as they're not part of a compound
word.
> > >
> > > Because of the compound word "spaceship", it would be unusual
for
> > > any spacecraft to be called a boat.
> > (...)
> >
> > Thanks for that explanation on compound names, that was very
clarifying.

Thank for the extremely comprehensive message, now I finally
understand all this boat-ship mess! I see the light! ;-)

BTW, by Googling I found that the correct spell for the German word is
Unterseeboote, which in fact translates as "undersea boat". Talking
about languages, I think that nautical terminology in my own language
contributed for making everything more confuse to me: we call ships
"navios" (those things with tens to thousands of people on board), and
we call small nautical vehicles "barcos", but that is not quite the
same of "boat", I think, because some "barcos" cannot be carried on a
ship; I think that the definition is more related to the crew
capacity, although I am no sailor I would say that a "barco" has crew
under 10 and no passengers. Finally, for spaceships we for some
obscure reason use the archaic word "nave", which centuries ago had
the same meaning of "navio" but now is used only for fictional and
real spaceships regardless of their size. (A flying saucer, Battlestar
Galactica and the Apollo capsule are all "naves".)

On 11/28/05, Alexander Roderick wrote:
> Submarines are a special case. It's all about tradition, decending from the
> German usage Unterseeboot, or "U-Boat". (Did I spell that even remotely
> right?). So all subs are called "boats" in English speaking Navies, even if
> they are bigger than many ships. For surface craft, it is a general rule
> that a boat is a boat if it can be carried on a ship.
>
> When you get to space vessels, there's an extra twist. Most current
> spacecraft are also aircraft, so aviation terminology gets thrown into the
> mix. A lot of aviation terms come from nautical ones via a complex
> evolution, so they collide back together again in space. At one time, it
> was common to refer to aircraft as "ships", but this usage faded with time.
>
> Most often, for non-fictional craft, the designers make up new terms to name
> the vehicles in a strictly descriptive manner. Like: capsule, orbiter,
> re-entry vehicle, lunar lander, space station, or sattelite. The latest
> trend is towards descriptive acronyms, like LRV, UAV, etc. Very seldom is a
> current space vessel refered to as a "ship", especially since so many
> space-vehicle operators are from the Air Forces. On occasion, a pilot may
> use the term of endearment "bird", especially if his vehicle has wings
> (which only the space shuttle and Spaceship One do now).
(...)

The "boats can be carried on a ship" rule isn't hard and fast in English,
either. For instance, the small and manuverable "torpedo boats" from World
War II were a bit too large for a seagoing crane to lift onto a ship, but
were still smaller than the smallest type of ship, which at that time was
either a frigate or corvette, and I don't care to go looking. Though, of
course, you can. :) (I actually think that the WWII torpedo boat was small
enough to be carried by a modern C5 Galaxy cargo plane.)

By the same token, the harbor tugboat is clearly too large to be a
subordinate craft, but is called a boat by tradition. As are most
commercial fishing vessels, but many of them carry specific names like
"trawlers".

Either way, when real space vessels come into abundance, I'm almost certain
they'll carry descriptive names, or acronyms thereof, and will pick up
clever nicknames as they are used.

On 11/29/05, Lucio de Souza Coelho wrote: