hi there. I'm just looking around for a group to bounce some ideas off
of, and this is one of the groups that i managed to find.

I feel that i should admit from the start that i am very into lunar and
martian colonization, as well as other psuedo planets like the moons of
jupiter, Saturn, neptune, and so forth.

However, and more importantly, it turns out that there are probably
millions of colonizable sized rocks out there in the solar system,
with the best minds saying we are due to find mars sized objects in
the oort cloud or kupier belt.

I have generated a 50 year colonization plan to bring us to colonizing
the kupier belt, which i think is based on pretty realistic figures and
science.

The largest obstacles we face are political ones, and for this reason,
i like to start with the standard test of the group. Since i just
tested and flunked a previous yahoo group, i figure the easiest way to
test this group quickly is just refer you all to there.

Its the LUF group...

The problem with the group is that they are infested with capitalists,
vampyres, sheeple, and libertarians. I actually don't have a problem
with Capitalism per sey; i think a free market enterprise system isthe
hallmark of a democratic system BUT as a sociologist, i also know that
as a solitary system, capitalism always decays into oligarchy, and
that oligarchy always decays into fascism.
For this reason, in order to maintain a democracy, it is neccessary
to incorporate a balancing system, (and in the case of small and
compact systems such as space stations, capitalism as a solitary system
is so flawed that its simply untenable; Social neccessity demands a
certain amount of what some people call socialism.)
From: prometheuspan (Original Message) Sent: 1/20/2006 5:57 PM
this is the back up of the luf conversation in case things go hairy...
---------------------

First Previous 27-41 of 41 Next Last Delete Replies

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 27 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:14 PM
-- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Let me ask you a question kucitizen, what do you want?
Thats a no brainer. I want to be one of the people responsible
for breaking the glass cieling and generating the problem solving
process that puts me on another planet within my lifetime instead
of never/500 years from now.

I want to use my considerable intellect to solve the remaining
problems, I want to make social connections with people who are as
smart as I am, and I want to actually be able to hold a conversation
with people other than sheeples or vampyres about things that are
generally beyond the scope of the imagination of sheeples and which
frighten Vampyres.

I'd like to see this group directly responsible for colonizing our
solar system, and I'd like to be a part of the very exciting phase
of human history that will start when kupier belt colonization gives
us a new order of magnitude of clarity for telescopes, an incredibly
massive industrial base, and sufficient distance from any gravitional
body to justify high end early warp experiments.
(the biggest problem with warp research is accidentally ending
the solar system... etc.)

I'd like a lot of things beyond that, but i think you get the
picture.

What do YOU want?

:)

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 28 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:15 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> in a battle situation you are what would be called FuBar. You know
> you are right and no amount of good sense is going to get by that
> road block you have put in your way.
>
> See my philosophy is to play with your cards close to your chest.
I
> want some paranoid people around to whisper in my ear. The last
thing
> we need however is one screaming at the top of his lungs.
>
> Ok, I am the biggest boogie man you have seen in awhile because I
am
> going to try and do just what you are afraid of. I am going to
try,
> if I can, to come in here and create a group out of this
> organization. I am going to try to create groupthink, I am going
to
> try to make this an efficient machine and worst of all and this is
> your worst nightmare I am going to take capitalism to the stars.
sounds like if you are honest, then we are on the same page. If you
are a vampyre, then this is just your projection. Because it is so
off from what any of my real fears are, i think in all probability,
you are just giving me more evidence that you are a liar.

I don't have any problem with group think; i have a problem with
false hierarchies inside of groupthink- making groupthink drop to
the lowest common denominator IQ.

I don't have a problem with organization. I do have a problem with
you as the leader of this organization; especially since in my
opinion, the person here who ahs demonstrated all of the true signs
of real leadership is Eric, and because, from a meritocratic
standpoint, he is the only person who has said anything worth
following so far.

I don't have a problem with taking capitalism to the stars. Happilly
for me, capitalisms inherant flaws as a solo system magnify into
total unworkability in closed environments. The balance between free
enterprise and socialism will have to be correct; or capitalism will
dry up and the stars will forever be beyond its grasp.

It takes REAL social science to get us to the stars, not made up
convenient mumbo jumbo, or oversimplified rhetoric and propaganda.
So by all means, lets take capitalism to the stars. Hand in hand
with Socialism- otherwise, Capitalism is just the doom of humanity,
and no matter what you do, its not gonna fly.

> Yes your worst fear come true. We have decided that unfettered
> capitalism will work out there and that there is lots of money to
be
> made. We also see this organization as the best way to take
> capitalism out there.
Your use of the imperial pronoun is again more evidence that you
are actually a plant who joined just to take things in your
direction instead of mine.
Who are the rest of you?
Why don't you just go back to whatever far right sadists group you
(seem to have) came from and plot to make it to the stars from there?

> See we have a different perspective on sheeple. We believe that
even
> the dimmest among us have a place in this new grand scheme and
that
> sometime the paranoids need to step aside and allow the sheeple
the
> chance to lead.
Right, we do have a different perspective on sheeple. I beleive that
being a sheeple is a psychological disease. You think its about IQ,
and probably, Social Status. You LIKE sheeple, I know that being a
sheeple is a waste of a human mind.

Sheeple don't lead, they follow- that is the defining characteristic
of being a sheeple. So wether you are following somebody elses
rhetoric, or, generating it yourself, the truth is that there isn't
a black and white duality here; there is a third alternative.
You don't have to be a sheeple, or a vampyre; anybody is free to
join at any time the ranks of the genuine intellectuals.

>
> As for MR. Delist
>
> If you could tell those things to that guy you wouldn't for fear
of
> him being one of them. I will tell him how to get what he wants
and
> the difference is that I will tell him it's not easy and he has
got
> to work to get those things.
okay, go to it.

You will string him along with false
> hopes of the easy way.
no, i would just give him the truth, the whole tuth, and in some
cases, the uncomfortable truth

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 29 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:16 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Let me say that if this group took your ideas to heart it would be
in
> the situation it is in right now. Struggling to even exist.

actually, since so far you have yet to do anything other than
invalidate me and offer some "growth" ideas, i think its pretty clear
that my ideas would in fact add to the diversity of a genuine
intellectual atmosphere, whereas yours would demonstrably shut down
a genuine dialog.

Interesting invalidations, but all of them are uncogent.
I have a lot of knowledge in communications theory, and
conversational logic. Invalidating me is going to put you out of
your league very quickly.

I think
> we should actually use a more conservative approach such as
looking
> to historic models that actually work rather than some
goobledigook
> that makes you feel good.
There it is; the final good proof that you are operating via
rhetoric only. You uhave yet to answer a single idea i have proposed.
In fact, my ideas are grounded in science. So far, i have prooved on
a few occcassions allready that yours weren't. Who is making up
gobbledy gook that makes them feel good? You are.

Classic symptom of the con vampyre; they project and project their
shadow like madness itself.

>
> The group you want would be very good if you want to organize a
bake
> sale or even have discussions on the internet but to create a
space
> faring civilization you need to have a group that isn't
preoccupied
You don't know what you are talking about. I am done with your lame
overgeneralizations and patent Bs.

I think its clear that you came in here looking to invalidate me
personally, from square one, that you have had a political
motivation other than mere interest in space travel, from square
one, i think your timing and arrival are too comfortably coinciding
with my own from square one, and i think its pretty clear to anybody
who is rational who the bs artist is; from square one.

This group allready ahs leaders, and since you aren't one,
i suggest you retire at least to your own corner and yourown
good ideas and good energy, andquit trying to cut me down, as, by
now, i am sure that the truth is self evident, and, more importantly,
this is devolving into a pointless flamewar (i think that was always
your intention anyways.)

> with "Doing my own thing" or "expressing myself in my own way" you
> need a focused group that is task oriented. |
I know, i do have knowledge in think tank theory.

> What you suggests sounds more like play time at the preschool than
> commanding a multinational coorporation like Aquarius.
Yeah, well, what you suggest sounds like fascism running the show.
I am sure you think totalitarianism is fine, as longas you and
your "we" folks are in charge.

> If people follow your model they will still be arguing about the
> color schemes of archology paints rather than building them.
again, a baseless insult. You have no idea how many arcologies i
have designed, how well, or how scientifically sound they would be.
In fact, you are just throwing insults.

> Where do I see myself? I am an organizer and a goal oriented go
> getter. If I wind up at the top of the organization it will be
> because I will have the support of people who see that I am the
best
> person for the job.
great; you are the best person for the job at Bushes Star Academy;
you fit in fine with the fascists there, why don't you ask for a
desk job?

>
> Where do you see yourself. I can answer that from your previous
> comments. You believe you should be in charge of the entire
> organization because you see yourself as the tortured genius who
sees
> the real truth and only that truth can lead to eventual success.
no, i believe in consensus, equality, and democracy; that is again
your projection of your own shadow; reverse honesty.

You
> say you don't want to be in charge but a ego like yours who is
never
> wrong can't follow and if you have never learned to follow you
will
> never be a leader.
i allready am a real leader. I lead not by being charge, but by
coming up with new cogent ideas and putting together real science.

>
> You see I will manage the Georgia
i think "georgia" says a lot...lol.

outpost and build it into the most
> powerful and organized group in the organization. As the most
> organized and effectual group we will naturally lead. Now if you
> don't like that create your own organization and challenge me down
> that path of competition lies a healthy powerful orgnization which
> will get us all off this planet.
sounds great. Why are you wasting your time hurling baseless insults
at me? Don't you have an organization to build? Go do it.

>
> As for you not wanting to be lead by me. Thats fine don't follow
me
> trust me when I say I really don't need your help. I will still
> accept your help but only on the day you stop being a paranoid.
You will end up taking my help one way or another, if what you
really want to do is get to space.

>
> I am an archeaologist BTW
great, go back to school and get some social sciences.
>
> I could care a wit what you think of my knowledge of anything as I
> generally don't take the word of a paranoid with a persecution
> complex as anything but rambling nonsense.
> ------------------
uh huh, more insults...

> > > >
> > > Without rank structures and pack psychology you will never
have
> > group
> > > identity
> > ----------------------
> > I am sorry, but a democratic meritocratic group identity is not
> only
> > feasable, its actually emotionally and mentally healthy instead
of
> > just accidentally ethno (and thus cogni) centric. It makes
groups
> > stupid to have those kinds of identities because those kinds of
> > identities limit the choices for personal expression and
personal
> > evolution and personal identity within the group.
> >
> > Your logic simply doesn't follow. Identity doesn't have to be
based
> > on pack structures.
> > and without group identity you will never have an organization
> > > larger than 30 people (which is at the very top end of groups
> > without
> > > formal rank identification).
> > ------------------
> > Somebody should have told thomas jefferson, John Adams, And
> Benjamin
> > franklin. For some crazy reason, they and most social scientists
> have
> > concluded that it is in fact possible to have better and wiser
group
> > identities focused on group equality rather than generating
luggage
> > in the form of more false hierarchies.
>

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 30 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:17 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Ok tired of your silliness I think the best thing to do is ignore
you
> from now on. You go ahead and ignore me too and we will see who
holds
> more truth. :)
>-------------------------
wisest thing you said all night.

:)

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 31 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:18 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Please for the good of this organization take your rambling
paranoid
> nonsense to private email. Have you considered professional help?
I
> think there are some really good drugs out there for your
condition.

i don't have a condition, and i don't need help.
Your insults are pathetic.

Thanks for prooving both to me and the group what and who you
really are.
:)

Have a nice evening...
vampyre.

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 32 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:18 PM
The X1 starship is by definition a "space shuttle" overall concept
design, with a larger and more needlelike fuselage, and a larger, more
triangular and circular wing span. It pushes the limitations of what
the
aero wing design will hold in its very large size of about 2000 feet in
"diameter". The main fuselage goes most of the length of that 2000
feet,
but is about 100 feet in diameter. Inside of the main fuselage, there
are, primarilly, two fore and aft cargo modules and two inner
centripital gravity environ chambers.

Although current design criteria and ecological limitations may end up
limiting the design to about 16 passengers, the original cabin environ
was designed to give 37 inhabitants a psychologically livable space,
rather than a cramped environment to live in.

The garden rotating chamber would have to feed the crew, and provide
for the needs of the air cycle.

The x1 uses several propulsion systems to adapt to the needs of its
situation. Its wing and rotary turbine vertical lift hover systems
allow it in theory to plane to a reasonably hi altitude. If sufficient
velocity for the ramrockets (600 mph) can't be attained that way, the
(Luna landing mandatory) secondary standard solid and liquid
combustion fuel rockets can fire for a very brief period in order to
push it over the threshold level.

Once the ramrocket pressurization comes into phase, the first
operational level of the ramrocket can use literally the air it
encounters as fuel to achieve at the very least, a fairly high
position in the atmosphere.

Wether or not pressurization for ramrocket velocities can be obtained
while in atmosphere it a matter for a great deal of physics and math
conjecture beyond my own personal abilities. However, the solid
rockets can once again fire for a brief period in order to push the
vessel out of atmosphere.

Phase two velocities for the ramrocket design must by definition
include the higher level of the ramrocket; and this is probably the
largest hurtle, actually, in my opinion, for the overall design on the
propulsion level.

The x2 is a dirigible design, because what we kknow from studying
aerodynamics is that theres a phase and frequency and mass problem
for winged ships that finally cancels out making anything any bigger
with a slowly geometrically increasing fuel cost. Dirigibles are the
only good mitigating circumstance we have found for this problem; You
can make dirigibles huge. Thinking about it; you burn a very different
fuel and such a tiny amount of it; but you use that fuel several
orders of magnitude more efficiently by holding the gases instead of
just expelling them.

The X2 will of course be a more or less cylindrical body, and will
start as a dirigible and then be retrofitted in space as a rotating
arcology. The point of the x2 is to have population sized gene pools
of the minimum size actually up in space, rather than tiny tiny
populations of humans actually up in space.

The x2 will actually cary with it most of the materials required for
its own retrofit; wich will include water, cement, and a steam style
foaming system to create foamcrete. Lead insulation will have to be
flown up by the x1 fleet.

The x1 is also the carrier of the garden in its micro form; and the
lander/ colonizer, whereas the x2 would never attempt a landing
anywhere for any reason. The two must therefore presumably port with
each other, and my design calls for doing this in the aft of the
cone/cylinder/ cone shaped vessel.

In order for the x2 to actually make escape velocity, it to will have
to have air burning ramrocket systems, and solid propellant rockets.
A single large rotary blade system might be used in a fall back to
earth phase (as a helicopter).

The x3 is built and launched from Luna, in order to take advantage of
microgravity building conditions and escape velocity costs.
The x-3 in some senses might be thought of as a more realistic version
of the "Battlestar Galactica". A large, arcology sized ship with a
fleet of much smaller landing and operations craft.

Instead of fighters and shuttles, we would have actually
mining/construction/processing Bot systems, and this vessel flies
very slowly through the asteroid belt, in order to make a fairly rapid
octagonalized psuedo orbit.

The x4 is of course the hollowed asteroid; phobos or its sister,
any of a hundred different "Near Earth Objects", and perfect in
design for the micro- moons of jupiter and saturn. The x4 has solid
and liquid rocket systems for stationkeeping purposes only; it doesn't
go anywhere- it just drifts around inside of its orbit a little.

The x5 is of course the outer solar system shuttle; a new and improved
combination of x1 and x2 principles, with a slightly smaller size than
the X1 in terms of main fuselage and a slightly larger thrust system
compared to the x1. Its job is to carry us to the outer solar system
in a realistic way, rather than the x1; whose realistic application
would only be for the inner solar system.

The x6 is of course the new and improved supercarrier colony, capable
of traveling fairly slowly with very large populations from jupiter
or the asteroid feilds out into the outer solar system.
It is of course the compliment carrier system to the settling x5.

The x7 comes as we have now colonize the entire solar system.
For a variety of reasons...(large planet sized magnetic feilds
used to push us into phase differential basement universes and
then use artificial gravity waves to warp space time might wreak
havoc on oh say....the Solar system itself....So for moral and ethical
reasons, the X7 is launched from the kupier belt, travels out past the
orrt, and then fires its new and improved gravitionally interfering
magneto ramrockets....)

The x7 is where we more or less stopped. Slightly improved versions of
the x6 can take us at sublight speeds to the stars. We can call that
simulation x8. Simulation x7 is the attempt to create a warp vessel.

There are a lot of new and interesting theories about how to go about
doing this, and here is my take on the subject; it may always be in
the realm of science fiction, and we need to be intellectually honest
about that. On the other hand, its fun to think about; and like the
alchemists attempt to turn lead into gold; its not that it may be
impossible that matters; its the fun of the intellectual exercise that
counts.

There are 3 main ways to describe ftl with current physics
possibilites.
A. Graviton Rolling.
A magnetic feild (or tachyonic feild) is used to polarize
gravitational energy, and redirect the gravitional holomorph.
Then, the new holomorph is used to roll space/time, creating an
artificial wormhole.

B. Phase dimension shifting;
Inside a basement universe, you are as relative to this space time
continuum as one hyper node in the quantum froth to another hyper node
in the quantum froth. If we can create some kind of "exit" and step
just outside of the universe to its boundary layer, we can traverse
the boundary layer itself, which in hyperspace is still a single one
dimensional node thats only inflated on the inside.

C. Tachyons riding;
If tachyons exist, fool the universe into thinking you are one.

simulation x8

A large rolling space station with large magneto ramrocket thrust
systems designed for sub light interstellar travel. The X8 has an
entire on board space Navy, which it can use to explore ahead of it
and around it, or to colonize.

Simulation y1

The earth to orbit shuttlecraft never goes any farther than back and
forth from earth orbit to space.

simulation y2

Shuttlecar; This small craft is practical for asteroid to asteroid
travel and 5- 10 persons for 24 hours.

Simulation y3 ;
Shuttlebus; this small craft is practical for asteroid to asteroid
travel and 50-100 people for 3 months.

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 33 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:24 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, Iain Hallam wrote:
>
> kucitizenx wrote:
> > Geeks are interested in something more than sex, money, and power.
Unless
> > you have an interest in SPACE EXPLORATION you don't really belong
here.
>
> I'm afraid that isn't really true in any sense of the word. The
foundation
> isn't a collective geek-out, nor should it be. It *is* a space
exploration
> group, but that doesn't have to be the overriding concern of every
member of
> this group. Even those who have a tiny passing interest should be
welcome to
> drop by, ask a question or contribute thoughts, etc.
>
> - Iain.

I totally agree.

:)
"if youdon't have an interest in SPACE EXPLORATION you don't really
belong here."

was a lousy thing to say, and in the heat of being insulted, igot
messy. Have to say its not exactly what i meant to say.

Heres how i would answer the question;
What are your interests?

Mine are;

Psychology, Sociology, Metaphysics, Philosophy, Conversational Logic,
Politics, Physics, Theoretical Physics, World Religions, World
Religious History, Ecological Science, Biochemistry, Human Evolution
movement, Permacultural Science, Psychonautics, Trance Technologies,
Lucid visualization, Drawing+ Drafting, Internet conversations,
Space Exploration, Theoretical XenoBiology, Theoretical XenoSociology,
Arcologies, Arcology design, Qaballah Tree of Life Arcology Design,
.....................................

In my opinion, the answer to the question "sex, money, and power"
Is an honest explanation for why the person isn't interested in the
group. Its not that i want them to go away, and its not that i hate
them, but this is not a club for the purposes of geting laid, making
a million dollars, or ruling the world.

Rather than try to talk them out of their choice, accept the hidden
unfortunate truth; This person has realized that their attachments to
the physical rung of the maslows hierarchies of needs do indeed have
them trapped; and they want to stay moved into that set of comfort
zones. Thats not a visionary thinker or a problem solver on the
frontier of science by definition.

I would love to have the guy around. I would really like to know what
his contributions are. But hey, lets be realistic; what is the "group
identity?" this isn't over sex, money, or power.
It shouldn't be; that would be perverse.

I could call this thread title "Sociology of Space Exploration"
and make the entire thing simple that way.

The fact of the matter is, if you are going to have 4000 people
(minimum size gene pool) anywhere off of the planet, you are going to
have to provide for the needs of those 4000 people from A-Z or your
system is going to collapse. Thats not socialism and it has nothing to
do whatsoever with politics; thats the physics of putting the human
animal in space.

People accustomed to thinking of space exploration as rocket science
only seem to think thats all it takes. The real reason why we can't
get any farther than orbit is ecology science is stuck. How the human
animal fits into an ecological cycle is the definition of the problem;
not some annoying politically charged propaganda people don't want to
think about.

I don't have any problem with capitalism per sey if it is balanced by
functional social science. Out of balance, think tanks going the
fascism direction don't even realize that they are creating an
intentionally stupid think tank, or, more importantly, the Bush
version of the starship would get us all irradiated, and all of the
colonists would die from radiation poisioning.

(and thats getting less rems than you are probably getting handling
depleted uranium rounds, which is what our soldiers are doing just
now. The Administration denies science fact out of ignorance and
political expedience. The fact is, thats a lethal dose of radiation.
It may take two generations, but that gene pool contributor just lost
genetic stability beyond all hope of repair. Denial? Stupidity?
Whatever; I almost don't care.)

Whats important here is maslows hierarchy of needs, and realizing
that wether we colonize space or just make peace here,(on earth) the
name of the game is meeting human needs so that we can get on to the
rest of it;
not keeping tops and bottoms so that vampyres can still be pleased to
be on top of sheeple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_needs

They have killed the great Sun-Jester,
Who danced between the stars,
They have stripped him of his manhood,
Signs of Venus and of Mars,
The cynics left him weeping,
And the Jackals left him torn,
And the jester reaches out blind hands,
He can touch the stars no more.

And he danced for us,
And he laughed for us,
And he gave us all he had,
He was Jesus, he was Jonas,
He was good and he was bad.

He took the stars in his hands,
And as he scattered them he'd shout,
"I'm the Joker of the Universe,
I'm what it's all about!"
Now he's dying in his dream,
And the hard me dragged him down,
They have killed the Great Sun Jester,
They have killed the Fireclown.

Now his blind eyes seek the starlight,
And his fingers seek controls,
To take him into space again,
Where he was both young and old.
The Dancer's stiff with pain,
They've made him kneel too long,
And the madness they have driven out,
They've left him cold and sane.

And he'll never sing his songs again,
He'll never dance between the stars again,
He'll never laugh again,
No, He'll never, ever laugh again.

Black Blade
(from Cultosaurus Erectus, in 1980)
I have this feeling that my luck is none too good.
There are ruins in my past - ruins in my destiny,
And this sword here at my side don't act the way it should.
Keeps Calling me it's master,
But I feel like it's slave.
Hauling me faster and faster
To an early, early grave.
- And it howls! Oh, it howls like hell...

Well, I'm told it's my duty to fight against the law,
That there's freedom is my blade - that wizardry's my trade,
And that I was born to wade through gore.
I just want to be a lover,
Not a red-eyed screaming ghoul.
I wish it would pick another
To be it's killing tool.
- And it's cosmic song - it goes on too damn long.

Black Blade!
Black Blade!
Forged a million years ago.
Black Blade!
Black Blade!
Killing, so it's power can grow and grow.
Black Blade!
Black Blade!
Bringing Chaos to the world we know.

And it's using me to kill my friends,
Getting stronger and stronger so the world will end,
Forcing my mind to bend and bend and bend!
It's the evilest weapon that ever was made!

Black Blade!
Black Blade!
Singing for eternity.
Black Blade!
Black Blade!
Carving out my destiny.
Black Blade!
Black Blade!
And it's using - oh, it's using me...

Bringing in the lords of Chaos.
Bringing in the beasts of Hades.
Sucking out the souls of heroes.
Laying waste to lords and ladies.

Black Blade!
Black Blade!

There is death from the beginning to the end of time.
Death in the flames, the earth, the sky, the sea
And I am the cosmic champion. I hold the mystic sign
And the whole world's dying
And the burden's mine
And the Black Sword keeps on killing,
Doesn't care if I am willing
And it's howling - howling - howling like hell...

Black Blade!
Black Blade!
etc.

Veteran of a Thousand Psychic Wars
(from Fire of unknown Origin, in 1981)
You see me now, a veteran
Of a thousand psychic wars
I've been living on the edge so long
Where the winds of limbo roar
And I'm young enough to look at
And far to old to see
All the scars are on the inside
And I'm not sure if there's anything left of me

Don't let these shakes go on
It's time we had a break from it
It's time we had some leave
We've been living in the flames
We've been eating up our brains
Oh please don't let these shakes go on.

You ask me why I'm weary
Why I can't speak to you
You blame me for my silence
Say it's time I changed and grew
But the war's still going on, dear.
And there's no end that I know
And I can't say if we're ever
Ever gonna be free.

You see me now, a veteran
Of a thousand psychic wars
My energy is spent at last
And my armour is destroyed
I have used up all my weapons
And I'm helpless and bereaved
Wounds are all I'm made of
And did I hear you say this is victory

Don't let these shakes go on
It's time we had a break from it
Send me to the rear
Where the tides of madness swell
And been sliding into hell
Oh please don't let these shakes go on.

http://www.novymir.com.au/terminalcafe/boc.html

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 34 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:26 PM
>
I'd love for to hear of his ideas, thoughts, contributions...
I don't think i am judging anybody harshly, I am just taking
them at their word.

I DO want to get to the Kupier Belt, Personally.
I DO think thats not science fiction,
I DO want to solve the real problems at hand.

This IS called "Exit strategy"
and its meant to bribe the group into conforming to poltical pressure.
The way out of the apparent double bind mind trap is indifference.

If Rich wants to leave; let him leave. If Rich wants to Stay; Let him
stay. Its his choice. If i have violated his comfort zones by telling
the world some uncomfortable truths; I am sorry, but thats what its
going to take to break that glass cieling everybody else but me seems
to take so seriously.

My truth will not be held hostage to codependant drama antics.

This is a test; it is only a test. If any of this had been serious, it
would have included DRAWINGS and pages of search referencs.

I have been round and round the big fat zero sum game. I step into a
space and i call those who would assassinate me one way or the other
sooner or later out. They reveal themselves in the front end, and the
group gets over it; or me and the group don't waste each others time.

I am morpheus; the veil is parted to my eyes. The grand mortal dream
is but a jesters game. I have constructed enough of the goblin riddle
that i can peel back lie anywhere. I link between schema, i can make
those new connections, Lethetic lethe lethite.

I am that bright shining athame that cuts ahead on the bell curve of
human evolution and human thought. I am the slayer of paradigms and
the builder of paradigms. Lucidity is knowing epistomologies truth;
all is but symbol; symbol is approximate; the map is not the
territory. Author I tea is a poisoned cup if somebody else gives it to
you. Drink deep of the collective psyche; know truth, and by knowing
it and revealing it; participate in true power.

i don't ahve time to argue with infants; i have a solar system to
colonize.

> In my opinion, Rich is neither a "vampyre" nor a "sheeple", but a
true Spacer, and I am glad to know him and miss working with him.
>
> Jamal
>

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 35 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:26 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Can you make a reply on this board without it being full of insults
> against people who disagree with your world view?
>
> Calling people vampires, sheeple, etc ad nauseum isn't going to win
> you friends.
>
> ----------------
can you only attack and play foil? Or can you actually contribute to
a positive cocreative process. I reject all of your projections at me;
I am not who you think i am, nor who you portray me to be. I am not
your emmanuel goldstien; go find some other idiot to stick a pitchfork
in.

As long as we are playing chess, you should get a clue of where you
really stand. From now on i will simply number your non-cogent
statements, and your ad hominems, i won't even bother to reply to it.

If you can say anything that is not an ad hominem, something that
actually has scientific merit, stand and deliver. I allready have.

I called you a vampyre after you first warned the forum that you were
going to sponsor a flame war, and then attacked me. We discovered very
quickly what you are. Now you have a choice. You can actually snap
back into lucidity and abandon being a vampyre, or you can continue to
play this silly game; mostly with yourself; and with me, i promise,
humiliating you consistantly otherwise.

If it quacks like a duck, flaps like a duck, swims like a duck, and
behaves like a duck, its a duck. If you don't like it, make a new set
of choices about what and how to contribute consensually to a
democratic process.

Some days, on bad days, my vampyric or sheeple nature come out.
Some days i can be the terrible dragon. Some days i can be the
visionary genius. We can bring out the best or the worst in each
other; so far, i seem to be bringing out the vamp in you.

If there is something more there of substance; then revert to it;
otherwise, i suggest you back out slowly before i eat you for dinner.
I am the dragon in the presence of vampyres.

Fallacies of Distraction

False Dilemma: two choices are given when in fact there are three
options
>From Ignorance: because something is not known to be true, it is
assumed to be false
Slippery Slope: a series of increasingly unacceptable consequences is
drawn
Complex Question: two unrelated points are conjoined as a single
proposition
Appeals to Motives in Place of Support
Appeal to Force: the reader is persuaded to agree by force
Appeal to Pity: the reader is persuaded to agree by sympathy
Consequences: the reader is warned of unacceptable consequences
Prejudicial Language: value or moral goodness is attached to believing
the author
Popularity: a proposition is argued to be true because it is widely
held to be true
Changing the Subject
Attacking the Person:
(1) the person's character is attacked
(2) the person's circumstances are noted
(3) the person does not practise what is preached
Appeal to Authority:
(1) the authority is not an expert in the field
(2) experts in the field disagree
(3) the authority was joking, drunk, or in some other way not being
serious
Anonymous Authority: the authority in question is not named
Style Over Substance: the manner in which an argument (or arguer) is
presented is felt to affect the truth of the conclusion
Inductive Fallacies
Hasty Generalization: the sample is too small to support an inductive
generalization about a population
Unrepresentative Sample: the sample is unrepresentative of the sample
as a whole
False Analogy: the two objects or events being compared are relevantly
dissimilar
Slothful Induction: the conclusion of a strong inductive argument is
denied despite the evidence to the contrary
Fallacy of Exclusion: evidence which would change the outcome of an
inductive argument is excluded from consideration
Fallacies Involving Statistical Syllogisms
Accident: a generalization is applied when circumstances suggest that
there should be an exception
Converse Accident : an exception is applied in circumstances where a
generalization should apply
Causal Fallacies
Post Hoc: because one thing follows another, it is held to cause the
other
Joint effect: one thing is held to cause another when in fact they are
both the joint effects of an underlying cause
Insignificant: one thing is held to cause another, and it does, but it
is insignificant compared to other causes of the effect
Wrong Direction: the direction between cause and effect is reversed
Complex Cause: the cause identified is only a part of the entire cause
of the effect
Missing the Point
Begging the Question: the truth of the conclusion is assumed by the
premises
Irrelevant Conclusion: an argument in defense of one conclusion
instead proves a different conclusion
Straw Man: the author attacks an argument different from (and weaker
than) the opposition's best argument
Fallacies of Ambiguity
Equivocation: the same term is used with two different meanings
Amphiboly: the structure of a sentence allows two different
interpretations
Accent: the emphasis on a word or phrase suggests a meaning contrary
to what the sentence actually says
Category Errors
Composition: because the attributes of the parts of a whole have a
certain property, it is argued that the whole has that property
Division: because the whole has a certain property, it is argued that
the parts have that property
Non Sequitur
Affirming the Consequent: any argument of the form: If A then B, B,
therefore A
Denying the Antecedent: any argument of the form: If A then B, Not A,
thus Not B
Inconsistency: asserting that contrary or contradictory statements are
both true
Syllogistic Errors
Fallacy of Four Terms: a syllogism has four terms
Undistributed Middle: two separate categories are said to be connected
because they share a common property
Illicit Major: the predicate of the conclusion talks about all of
something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the
predicate
Illicit Minor: the subject of the conclusion talks about all of
something, but the premises only mention some cases of the term in the
subject
Fallacy of Exclusive Premises: a syllogism has two negative premises
Fallacy of Drawing an Affirmative Conclusion From a Negative Premise:
as the name implies
Existential Fallacy: a particular conclusion is drawn from universal
premises
Fallacies of Explanation
Subverted Support (The phenomenon being explained doesn't exist)
Non-support (Evidence for the phenomenon being explained is biased)
Untestability (The theory which explains cannot be tested)
Limited Scope (The theory which explains can only explain one thing)
Limited Depth (The theory which explains does not appeal to underlying
causes)
Fallacies of Definition
Too Broad (The definition includes items which should not be included)
Too Narrow (The definition does not include all the items which shouls
be included)
Failure to Elucidate (The definition is more difficult to understand
than the word or concept being defined)
Circular Definition (The definition includes the term being defined as
a part of the definition)
Conflicting Conditions (The definition is self-contradictory)

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

Please read Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales's personal appeal.
Logical fallacy
>From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Jump to: navigation, search
In dialectic, the term logical fallacy properly refers to a formal
fallacy: a flaw in the structure of a deductive argument which renders
the argument invalid. However, it is often used more generally in
informal discourse to mean an argument which is invalid for any
reason, and thus encompasses informal fallacies those which are
invalid for reasons other than structural flaws, such as an error in
the premises as well as formal fallacies.

The presence of a formal fallacy in a deductive argument does not
imply anything about the argument's premises or its conclusion. Both
may actually be true, but the deductive argument is still invalid
because the conclusion does not follow from the premises. By
extension, an argument can contain a formal fallacy even if the
argument is not a deductive one; for instance an inductive argument
that incorrectly applies principles of probability or causality can be
said to commit a formal fallacy. All that the presence of a formal
fallacy indicates is that the conclusion is not guaranteed from the
stated premises.

Recognizing fallacies in everyday arguments may be difficult since
arguments are often embedded in rhetorical patterns that obscure the
logical connections between statements. Informal fallacies may also
exploit the emotions or intellectual or psychological weaknesses of
the audience. Having the capability to recognize fallacies in
arguments will hopefully reduce the likelihood of such an occurrence.

A different approach to understanding and classifying fallacies is
provided by argumentation theory; see for instance the van Eemeren,
Grootendorst reference below. In this approach, an argument is
regarded as an interactive protocol between individuals which attempts
to resolve a disagreement. The protocol is regulated by certain rules
of interaction and violations of these rules are fallacies. Many of
the fallacies in the list below are best understood as being fallacies
in this sense.

For a list of types of formal and informal fallacy, as well as
examples of fallacious arguments, see Fallacy.

[edit]
See also
Anecdotal evidence
Chewbacca Defense
Cogency
Cognitive bias
College logic
Critical thinking
Demagogy
Fallacy
Fallacies of definition
False statement
Good argument
Informal logic
Invalid proof
Paradox
Sophism
Soundness
Spurious relationship
Validity
[edit]
References
Aristotle, On Sophistical Refutations, De Sophistici Elenchi.
William of Ockham, Summa of Logic (ca. 1323) Part III.4.
John Buridan, Summulae de dialectica Book VII.
Francis Bacon, the doctrine of the idols in Novum Organum Scientiarum,
Aphorisms concerning The Interpretation of Nature and the Kingdom of
Man, XXIIIff.
The Art of Controversy | Die Kunst, Recht zu behalten - The Art Of
Controversy (bilingual), by Arthur Schopenhauer
John Stuart Mill, A System of Logic - Raciocinative and Inductive.
Book 5, Chapter 7, Fallacies of Confusion.
C. L. Hamblin, Fallacies. Methuen London, 1970.
Fearnside, W. Ward and William B. Holther, Fallacy: The Counterfeit of
Argument, 1959.
D. H. Fischer, Historians' Fallacies: Toward a Logic of Historical
Thought, Harper Torchbooks, 1970.
Douglas N. Walton, Informal logic: A handbook for critical
argumentation. Cambridge University Press, 1989.
F. H. van Eemeren and R. Grootendorst, Argumentation, Communication
and Fallacies: A Pragma-Dialectical Perspective, Lawrence Erlbaum and
Associates, 1992.
"Logic", an article from Philosophical Society.com
[edit]
External links
The Fallacy Files by Gary N. Curtis
Logical Fallacies from Philosophical Society.com
Logical Fallacies Online edition of Madsen Pirie's Book of the Fallacy
Logic & Fallacies, from Atheism Web (no strict relation to Atheism)
Logic and fallacies: How to spot a problem argument
Stephen Downes's Guide to the Logical Fallacies
Humbug! Online by Clark & Clark - Fallacies and Humour
(Mirror)(Mirror)
Bruce Thompson's table of fallacies
Logical fallacies on WikiWikiWeb
The Woolly-Thinker's Guide to Rhetoric
The Autonomist's Logical Fallacies
A list of Fallacious Arguments
Propaganda techniques at Disinfopedia
Logical fallacies > Bad logic or propaganda? connection between
logical fallacy and propaganda
Informal Fallacies by Michael Connelly, contributed to the Critical
Thinking Across the Curriculum Project.
Papers on fallacies and argumentation by Douglas N. Walton.
Dr. Michael C. Labossiere's list of fallacies at the Nizkor Project
site
A Guide to Logical Fallacies by Paul Newall, aimed at beginners.
Geometric Fallacies
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 36 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:27 PM
>
> Neither you or kucitizen@y... have impressed me at all. You both
> showed your lack of intelligence and both of you will be gone in a
few weeks.
sorry to hear you feel that way. keep reading , you may change your
mind.

I don't have any problem with libertarians, i should add.

Hope to hear back from you regarding something other than drama
and politics....

:)

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 37 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:28 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> You ideas are based on your paranoia.

thats ad hominem 2

Please listen to yourself and
> get help

ad hominem 3

I really think you need to be in a doctor's care.

ad hominem 4.

I am perfectly well thank you.

I have a 180 IQ in 3 out of 8 types of intelligence.

I think on the other hand you are the kind of sick twisted
bully who attempts to control people and other situations
by means of character assassination.

Any further character assassination on your part, and i may be obliged
to contact a lawyer.
Do you have any credentials in psychology?

Or are you just spinning insult propaganda?

Ever heard of libel?

I hear that there are some new laws in effect.

You might want to rethink this tactic.
I am right, i am lucid, and i am smarter than you are.

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 38 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:28 PM
--- In luf-team@...m, "brennus_sca"
>
> Ok tired of your silliness I think the best thing to do is ignore you
> from now on. You go ahead and ignore me too and we will see who holds
> more truth. :)
>
You should hav stuck to this plan. It was the only good one you ever
came up with.

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 39 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:29 PM
by 2008, Think starship should have an infoproduct equal to 2000 pages
(1000 written and 1000 illustrated) per each of those departments, and
a
participant population on line of perhaps as many as 200,000 persons.

It will then begin resource and money raising, and looking to buy or
settle on a members land.

The Departments will now each be taxed to fullfilling the logistics
per the x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, and x6 simulations, as well as the Y series
simulations. This is the critical design phase.

by 2010, The critical design phase and assorted latent smaller scale
infoproduct phases, (including terrestrial prequel arcology designs)
will be in place. 100 page briefs can be generated for any given
society- Starting with the Palestinians and Israel- Describing how, in
theory, to resolve all social and political stresses, by the use of
prequel test arcology sites.

Construction can begin on macro robots- earth moving mining,
extrusion, and construction robots suitable for building large scale
arcologies.

By 2011, The Macro bot armada can be launched, and the x1 and Y series
simulations should be completed, with construction starting on the new
fleets by 2012.

By 2014, construction of the fleets should be completed, with 10 X1
starships and 20 Y1 shuttles, three X1s will head for Luna, Three will
head for mars, and four will be witheld in earth orbit.

by 2015, Lunar landing and colonization.

by 2017, phobos and Diemos landing and colonization,
by 2018 mars landing and colonization.

although this simulation does and can continue through to kupier belt
coloninzation, I am feeling a bit embattled today, and i think thus i
will leave off there.

The next phase of this once the whole simulation is on paper is to
take given single phases and expand explanations per phase to say a 3
page length.

I would never be able to accomplish that by myself, because i'd get
bored of spewing into a vaccum. Thats what I am hoping freinds are
for; to keep me talking.

Peace and light to everybody, see ya mondayish.

:)

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 40 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:29 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> At this point it's not like I care that much. No organization that
> actually wants to survive is going to put up with some
vampyric con serving ad hominem control freak.
looney tune
> screaming about conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions.
thats 9.

> Say what you will about me I want to push forward the organization
> not mire it in delusional prattle.
10.
>
> Personally it's too bad this portion of the organization allows that
> nonsense.
veiled insult Versus the moderator.
1

Oh well I will continue the fight for the eight steps laid
> out in the book. Anyone that wants to join a focused group please
> join the forums I started today at http://www.midgardproject.org I
> believe that we are seeing the end of LUF.
and, to finish, the bs heart yanking.
bravo. have a nice group. So far, this one suits me just fine,
but in the second phase growht stage, I assume we will get a full
site; not just a yahoo group. All things in appropriate time;
i am in no hurry to go anywhere; after all, i am cogent, can stand and
deliver, and the rest of my conversations seem to be doing just fine.

have a nice group.
lol
bye bye.
>
> If you want to be part of a more focused, conservative efforts
> starting on earth and leaving the clouds till tomorrow
ad hominem 11

come and
> join....not you Kucitizen.
oh, no, i am so hurt for being excluded ....
whatever will i do?
lol.

> At least a focused group will get things done.
your kind of focus is just wheels spinning inside of the labyrinth.
until you realize that the problems we face in the colonization
process are social as well as physical, you will only make kewl
rockets and ships for robots, not humans.

Reply
Recommend Delete Message 41 of 41 in Discussion

From: prometheuspan Sent: 1/20/2006 6:30 PM
--- In luf-team@yahoogroups.com, "brennus_sca"
>
> Is this a problem you guys often run into? I am seriously
interested. I
> merely suggested I might be a part of his conspiracy theory and he
ran
> with it. Is everyone else here like this or is he the only one? If
> everyone believes this nonsense I'm not sure this is salvagable. If
you
> aren't all paranoid aren't some of you concerned he could be
alienating
> huge numbers of potential members?

has anybody else noticed that this is character assassination?
Ad hominem tea anybody?

There are thundering herds of libertarians, capitalists, and even a
few full-fledged anarchists here. Gets annoying at times. A few
liberals too. They'd be just as annoying, I'm sure, if there were as
many of them.

Exactly what is a "vampyre?" Somebody who wants to suck money out of
everything? "The empirialist blood-suckers who sit on the backs of
the workers?"

I will be re-reading the technical stuff in more detail later; it
looks interesting from what I have read so far.

In the rather llllooooonnnngggg flamewar from luf that you posted, I
kind of lost track of exactly who was what and when and why.

I can say that I don't mind being around people who think that they
are smarter than I am, as long as they really are, and as long as they
don't insist in rubbing my nose in it. When some guy starts saying "I
have an IQ of..." I tend to feel the same way as I would if he had
said "My dick is this big!" and held his hands out. That is, whether
it's that big or not, I really don't care, and I don't want to sit
around and talk about his big dick or high IQ. I also tend to assume
(and you know what they say happens when you assume) that people who
are really smart can find better things to talk about than how smart
they are.

Loved the list of fallacies. I've read most of these before, and see
them used on the political talk shows and such, but to have such a
comprehensive list is cool.

Anyway, welcome aboard. The more the merrier, as they say. Whoever
"they" are.

In a message dated 1/25/2006 11:29:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
xenophile2002@... writes:

> In the rather llllooooonnnngggg flamewar from luf that you posted, I
> kind of lost track of exactly who was what and when and why.

It was a rather long and boring flame war.
Most of the LUF members have reacted as I have in this message. I hope that
he acts better here and post something actually intelligent.

Subj: Re: [luf-team] Re: hi there john wayne...
Date: 1/23/2006 9:38:59 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: JWSMITH42000
To: luf-team@yahoogroups.com

In a message dated 1/23/2006 9:25:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kucitizenx@... writes:

> Thank you for your concern and interest.
> :)

If you are so dame smart send me $18 billion so I can go to Mars. If you do
not have that kind of money that means that you are not one-billionth as smart
as you think you are.
You or one like you come along way to often for my liking. From my point of
view you are a pompous ass and a fool. There is nothing that you have to say
that I want to hear.
I personally will never be ready to tolerate someone like you for more than
the time that it is taking me to type this e mail. Do you get the picture.

Thank You
John Wayne Smith, CEO
1000 Planets, Inc.
Building a Road to the Stars.
A Libertarian Candidate for Florida Governor 2006
203 W Magnolia Street
Leesburg, Florida 34748
Phone 352 787 5550
E mail: JWSmith42000@...
ceo@...

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Xenophile"
wrote:
>
> There are thundering herds of libertarians, capitalists, and even a
> few full-fledged anarchists here. Gets annoying at times. A few
> liberals too. They'd be just as annoying, I'm sure, if there were
as
> many of them.
I'm not against capitalism or libertarians per sey;
its the same problem one ends up with "Christians". Its THEIR
exclusivity that is the problem. I actually like a diverse feild,
it makes things more interesting...i'd hate to be trapped in a
groupthink bubble...thats my idea of hell.

> Exactly what is a "vampyre?" Somebody who wants to suck money out
of
> everything? "The empirialist blood-suckers who sit on the backs of
> the workers?"
The people who knowingly keep science and information stupid so that
they can stay in power, keep their position, and control the sheeple.
Some of them are empirialists, but i would be very hesitant to jump
on socialisms band wagon either, as i am a rare breed, the fanatical
moderate.

> I will be re-reading the technical stuff in more detail later; it
> looks interesting from what I have read so far.
>
> In the rather llllooooonnnngggg flamewar from luf that you posted,
That was short my freind. You should have seen my flame wars on bnet.
Thousands of posts on both sides, lasting several months instead of
just a few days...lol.

This is why i try to make sure that the groups i join have brains
and open minds, that way i don't stay invested in a group long after
it has become apparent that they are intentionally ignorant bastards.
I
> kind of lost track of exactly who was what and when and why.
sorry...

> I can say that I don't mind being around people who think that they
> are smarter than I am, as long as they really are, and as long as
they
> don't insist in rubbing my nose in it.
I try not to bring it up, but when somebody insults my intelligence,
or tries to play mind fuck games, it can be an important first
step... nobody wants to be in a fair arguement with me, because its
not likely they are going to end up looking good whilst i pop their
delusions and pull back the veil on their false paradigms.

Honestly tho, i would like to be a member of a cocreative,
democratic, meritocratic group, which works off of logic and reason
rather than emotions and belief systems.

When some guy starts saying "I
> have an IQ of..." I tend to feel the same way as I would if he had
> said "My dick is this big!" and held his hands out. That is,
whether
> it's that big or not, I really don't care, and I don't want to sit
> around and talk about his big dick or high IQ. I also tend to
assume
> (and you know what they say happens when you assume) that people
who
> are really smart can find better things to talk about than how
smart
> they are.
> --------------
yeah, well, trying to talk about space colonization with these guys
was prooving pretty futile...if you follow what really happened, the
essence of the conversation is, i popped in, said hello, started
making the case that we could colonize in our lifetime instead of
the future future future, and that the main reason why things are
put off into the future future future is because of politics.
This of course set off the people invested in those false paradigms,
and rather than deal with my information, they attacked me
personally..
Really, >>I<< am pretty irrelevant and i'd like to keep it that way,
it was the other folks who made >me< the topic of the conversation.
> Loved the list of fallacies. I've read most of these before, and
see
> them used on the political talk shows and such, but to have such a
> comprehensive list is cool.
> -------------
right, well, especially in situations where an opponents argument is
so weak that they can only reason via fallacy, it sure beats
bothering to make more long winded replies to BS. Just name the
fallacy and start counting.
> Anyway, welcome aboard. The more the merrier, as they say.
Whoever
> "they" are.
>--------------
Thanks, I'll move in then...
:)