Dear Janet;

Reading your little communications has probably got half the lads
here laughing, especially one fellow in England.

I am not Homosexual, I really am quite normal. Though not a church
goer I am somewhat on the devout side and am currently studying
religeous tracts to find that bit of truth necessary. Many churches I
am appalled to say have really deviated from the scriptures. I am
what liberals casaully label a 'Right Wing Extremist' and quite proud
of it. Indeed If I am not on some black list or bad list of various
people it is not for want of effort.

I am not advocating a 'Do Do Be Happy', I am merely expressing the
long view based on historical observation. Indeed if I were of that
mind I would probably be boozing myself into a drunken stupor
routinely and screaming the world is about to end rather than
participating in discussions such as this and advocating the
colonzation of space. And I actually agree with you on quite a lot.

Indeed I believe that the So called 'Sexual Revolution' and
everything that goes with it is one of western civilization's biggest
mistakes. Other than the abolition of slavery most of the humanist
agenda is one bad mistake after another.

Humanity, mankind in peticular, needs a moral awakening. Discipline
and ordeer in society must be restored.

As for my history with women, it is quite grim. I won't get into it
but If I did it would be a real horror story.

Currently my social life is quite on the inactive. Starving artists
don't have the money or time to indulge in social lives.

Mankind needs to grow. Space is endless. I wish to create a novel on
the subject one of these days but in the meantime I write of the
past. I hope my novels get people's minds going but my current
situation is doing my best to get my projects going and getting them
published.

Michael

If one wishes to use the Puritans as a model for future space
colonies and the development of society I would be very optimistic.
As inspirers of the Protestant work ethic their influence lasted well
into the twentieth century.

They only stopped being a political force in New England with the
developement of the Irish Political machines. The Irish being good
catholics had a large birthrate. My grandparents had Nine Children.
As New Englanders moved west and Irish Immigrants and other
immigrants came in due to a high birthrate and low resource
availability in Ireland and Europe things went the way they did.

Modern 'enlightened' society doesn't offer that threat.

I do not see earth having much influence over the colonies developing
in space. Distance is a great factor but also so is man's
development. In Canada, they have elected their version of Reagan. We
shall see how far that goes. Australia is going to ban Gay Marriage.
For failing to reproduce itself Liberalism is going to seed and will
certainly soon begin to fade just as the Industrial revolution began
to fade against the tide of Socialism one hundred years ago.
Certainly there are setbacks to progress, in Holland Child Molesters
are forming their own Political party. But over all, western society
is beginning to get its act together. Hopefully it will lead us into
space.

When people move into space they will remake society to their own
desires and the Earth and any Earth governing body won't be in any
position to interfere.

It is my experience from studying history that Rights are not gifts
of society's elite that are handed down but decided collectively by
the people. Something western civilisation has currently forgotten.

Most so called Human Rights aren't founded on anything factual but
are products of Liberal imaginations. Indeed the term comes from the
French revolution when French intellectuals discussed the issue of
slavery. Asking themselves what is the minimum rights of a slave.

When people move into space they will be well within their collective
right and authority to repudiate these humanist things just as the
Puritans did repudiate decadent Tudor and Stewart Britain. Whether
they wish to execute criminals or ban abortion contrary to the
ideology of self styled human rights groups (I still find it
difficult to understand the nature of this bizar and self destructive
contradiction) who are so out of touch they have to impose their
ideology from above by forms of coersion rather than seek to have the
group embrace them.

The societies that form in space will be free to form and go their
way. Some like the Puritans of New England will grow and thrive.
Build additional habitats to house their growing population created
both by immigratian and natural birthrate. They will undoubtedly form
nations. Others like the Utopian communes of the American 1830s and
1840s will dwindle into nothing and disband. Earth's governments
because of distanc will be in no position to rig or distort the
contest.

I believe Space will be man's greatest moment in which a great
awakening will take place.

Hi Terrierkeeper,

>... Whether
> they wish to execute criminals or ban abortion contrary to the
> ideology of self styled human rights groups (I still find it
> difficult to understand the nature of this bizar and self
>destructive
> contradiction)

Quite simple. There are states fascinated with murder and others that
are afraid of killing.

Both the Soviet Union and the developed West were fanatical
abortionists and enthusiastics of killing criminals.
On the other side, many poor and 'uneducated' Catholic-influenced
countries which have ban abortion also have ban death penalty.

There is no contracdiction in terms, either you preserve life in all
its forms or you consider that life is a good that could be administer
at our convinience and which can be discarded when we wishes.

Yes, who believe in life also believes in the protection of animals
and of the environment. The contradiction is seen, however, in so many
people that preffer dogs to babies. Or foreign kids to their own.

That's disgusting.

Well, we are better that the Romans at least. They believed killing
was for fun.

Omar Vega

> Yes, who believe in life also believes in the protection of animals
> and of the environment. The contradiction is seen, however, in so many
> people that preffer dogs to babies. Or foreign kids to their own.
>
> That's disgusting.
>

With due respect, who are you to judge the life choices of others?
They do not seek to force you to live like them, so kindly consider
the value of your own right to decide how to live your life before
condemning others for doing so from their perspective.
We are beings capable of planning our futures, individually and
collectively. Fewer children mean more affluent societies which have
the leisure time and funds to contemplate nice things only rich
countries can accomplish, such as space colonization.

Abortion is a good thing to have available, as an 'un-do' option
which should be carefully considered. Many a life has benefited by not
being saddled with premature parenthood after contraceptive failure.
Indeed, it is better to have children who are wanted and raised with
responsability, which presumably happens with greater frequency these
days due to the layers of reproductive choices our hard won heritage
of medical science now allows us. All those 'missing births' are in my
judgement an invisible legacy which has been overwhelmingly for the
better for those concerned as well as for society.
I'm sick of hearing comparisons of societies allowing abortion with
the Nazis, and demonizing secular based world views. I'm tired of
reading gays being called 'deviants', I live in a city where a third
of the men are gay and let me tell you they take good care of their
property and neighborboods due to the affluence they chose to accrue
in leiu of breeding. I recognise their benefit to urban influences
even if I don't share their intimate interests.

The reduction in birth rates in Western cultures should be
celebrated as among the greatest accomplishments in the history of
Man. It shows we can decide to not act like blindly nutrient
swallowing bacteria multiplying in a petri dish. If and when the world
population settles to a level a fraction of what it is today Mankind
will be given a 'breather' allowing more time to devote resources to
space migration than to dealing with mounting billions living under
increasingly strained infrastructures. All enviornmental problems
ultimately stem from the maintainence and side effects of billions
more people than Earth was ever meant to sustain.

Someone telling you space travel is demonic based on relogious dogma
would sound pretty silly, so it is with other aspects of human destiny
we dare to consider and act upon which may be contrary to this or that
religous agenda. As an example Saudi Arabia was against the Moon
Landings, and if we try again we may face the equivelent of the
crazies who bomb abortion clinics, all powered by burning religious
zeal directed towards trying to control others lives.

Don

Hi,

>
> With due respect, who are you to judge the life choices of
>others?

People has the right to choose, but also people has the right to say
what they think about the rest. That's freedom and free speach,
isn't?

> They do not seek to force you to live like them, so kindly consider
> the value of your own right to decide how to live your life before
> condemning others for doing so from their perspective.

People can do whatever they want. They decide. The others judge.
That's so simple. And if some people is doing weird things, well,
just be aware someone will tell them they are crazy. That's all.

> Abortion is a good thing to have available, as an 'un-do' option
> which should be carefully considered. Many a life has benefited by
>not
> being saddled with premature parenthood after contraceptive
>failure.

Emergency break!!

> Indeed, it is better to have children who are wanted and raised
>with
> responsability, which presumably happens with greater frequency
>these
> days due to the layers of reproductive choices our hard won
>heritage
> of medical science now allows us.

You must be kidding. People in the developed countries don't want
kids anymore. They just want to keep enjoyinh life without
responsabilities at all. That's what the majoritity thinks anyways.

I feel pitty for those people in the developed world that still want
to have families, because they have to swim against the current all
the time.

> I'm sick of hearing comparisons of societies allowing abortion
> with
> the Nazis, and demonizing secular based world views.

Well, Nazis also killed people but they don't allowed abortion.
They are different kind of sadistic societies.

> I'm tired of
> reading gays being called 'deviants', I live in a city where a
>third
> of the men are gay

Jesus! There must be a lot of fun in there. Isn't?

>and let me tell you they take good care of their
> property and neighborboods due to the affluence they chose to
>accrue
> in leiu of breeding.

Yes, gays are very nice people sometimes. They are, how to say,
very "feminine". It's curious that today same gays are
more "femenine" than feminists.

"Breeding", what a disgusting term. It makes us forget that all
human beings have to be "breed". Or do you believe you were born in
a machine? Breeding, dear, is the way mankind has surviving death.
That's life plain and simple. You, like anyone else, will die one
day and somebody will have to replace you.

>
> The reduction in birth rates in Western cultures should be
> celebrated as among the greatest accomplishments in the history of
> Man.

Yes. Very important. Unfortunately the West won't celebrate for too
long because -if things goes like today- it won't survive to the
next generation. The West is doom to extinction. Pretty soon others
will be living in the lands of the former west.

And nobody will remember the West!!

Do you believe they will remember the "great accomplishement" of the
West to suicide?

>It shows we can decide to not act like blindly nutrient
> swallowing bacteria multiplying in a petri dish.

Yeah! I see. Live is very disgusting. We are animals after all. Have
you never seen how disgusting is for a woman to give birth? A lot of
pain and blood. Many even died in the experience. Well, they do
because they want to become mothers, to have family, to follow live
as it should be.

Thanks to that mankind will survive. The West perhaps not (which is
a pitty), but the human race has a future, because the women, that
have not forgotten their condition as the mothers, are giving birth
to the future generations.

> If and when the world
> population settles to a level a fraction of what it is today
> Mankind
> will be given a 'breather'

Yes, sure. Economics don't work that way, though. Today there are
the resources to keep the whole world happy. It won't happens
because there is a jungle out there that's called free market. If
Space settlement goes it will be because there is an economic reason
to finance them. Not charity.

> allowing more time to devote resources >to
> space migration than to dealing with mounting billions living under
> increasingly strained infrastructures. All enviornmental problems
> ultimately stem from the maintainence and side effects of billions
> more people than Earth was ever meant to sustain.

What's the use of the environment if there is no people to enjoy it?

> Someone telling you space travel is demonic based on relogious
>dogma
> would sound pretty silly, so it is with other aspects of human
>destiny
> we dare to consider and act upon which may be contrary to this or
>that
> religous agenda.

Yes, Religion is the big evil. They have the very bad manner to
preach. And to tell us we are siners.

> As an example Saudi Arabia was against the Moon
> Landings, and if we try again we may face the equivelent of the
> crazies who bomb abortion clinics, all powered by burning religious
> zeal directed towards trying to control others lives.

Well, not only religious extremists are nuts. Some progresists are
very fanatics too.

You should look the face of pleasure each time an abortionist doctor
has well he kills a fetus. And the happiness he receives the money
for the attentions.

Omar

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Omar E. Vega"
>
> Hi,
>
> > With due respect, who are you to judge the life choices of
> >others?
>
> People has the right to choose, but also people has the right to
say
> what they think about the rest. That's freedom and free speach,
> isn't?
>
> > They do not seek to force you to live like them, so kindly
consider
> > the value of your own right to decide how to live your life before
> > condemning others for doing so from their perspective.
>
> People can do whatever they want. They decide. The others judge.
> That's so simple. And if some people is doing weird things, well,
> just be aware someone will tell them they are crazy. That's all.
>
> > Abortion is a good thing to have available, as an 'un-do' option
> > which should be carefully considered. Many a life has benefited
by
> >not
> > being saddled with premature parenthood after contraceptive
> >failure.
>
> Emergency break!!
>
> > Indeed, it is better to have children who are wanted and raised
> >with
> > responsability, which presumably happens with greater frequency
> >these
> > days due to the layers of reproductive choices our hard won
> >heritage
> > of medical science now allows us.
>
> You must be kidding. People in the developed countries don't want
> kids anymore. They just want to keep enjoyinh life without
> responsabilities at all. That's what the majoritity thinks anyways.
>
> I feel pitty for those people in the developed world that still
want
> to have families, because they have to swim against the current all
> the time.
>
> > I'm sick of hearing comparisons of societies allowing abortion
> > with
> > the Nazis, and demonizing secular based world views.

Facts are both pro-choice groups justified their beliefs by denying
the humanity of their victims, portraying themselves as victims and
justifying their actions as the ultimate social good.
>
> Well, Nazis also killed people but they don't allowed abortion.
> They are different kind of sadistic societies.

Shocking truth is for all the Liberal revisionist lies they did. They
allowed and even encouraged abortion among Jews and others they
deemed less then human. Fewer born among the target peoples the fewer
the nazis would have to murder later. Himmler took one level further
and advocating encouragement of Contraception and homosexuality among
peoples the nazis considered inferior and wished to destroy mainly
the slavs.

And not all nazis were that limited. Paragraph 175 and its related
laws were hardly enforced within the Reich and not enforced outside
Germany. Many of the Doctors who advocated mass murder of the
physically or mentally unfit as well as those they deemed' racially
toxic' through gas chambers were also in favor of decriminalizing
abortion and pretty much did their best to undo the progressive laws
that were created in the beginning to court Germany's large Catholic
population.
>
> > I'm tired of
> > reading gays being called 'deviants', I live in a city where a
> >third
> > of the men are gay
>
> Jesus! There must be a lot of fun in there. Isn't?
>
> >and let me tell you they take good care of their
> > property and neighborboods due to the affluence they chose to
> >accrue
> > in leiu of breeding.
>
> Yes, gays are very nice people sometimes. They are, how to say,
> very "feminine". It's curious that today same gays are
> more "femenine" than feminists.
>
> "Breeding", what a disgusting term. It makes us forget that all
> human beings have to be "breed". Or do you believe you were born in
> a machine? Breeding, dear, is the way mankind has surviving death.
> That's life plain and simple. You, like anyone else, will die one
> day and somebody will have to replace you.
>
> > The reduction in birth rates in Western cultures should be
> > celebrated as among the greatest accomplishments in the history of
> > Man.
>
> Yes. Very important. Unfortunately the West won't celebrate for too
> long because -if things goes like today- it won't survive to the
> next generation. The West is doom to extinction. Pretty soon others
> will be living in the lands of the former west.
>
> And nobody will remember the West!!
>
> Do you believe they will remember the "great accomplishement" of
the
> West to suicide?
>
> >It shows we can decide to not act like blindly nutrient
> > swallowing bacteria multiplying in a petri dish.
>
> Yeah! I see. Live is very disgusting. We are animals after all.
Have
> you never seen how disgusting is for a woman to give birth? A lot
of
> pain and blood. Many even died in the experience. Well, they do
> because they want to become mothers, to have family, to follow live
> as it should be.
>
> Thanks to that mankind will survive. The West perhaps not (which is
> a pitty), but the human race has a future, because the women, that
> have not forgotten their condition as the mothers, are giving birth
> to the future generations.
>
> > If and when the world
> > population settles to a level a fraction of what it is today
> > Mankind
> > will be given a 'breather'
>
> Yes, sure. Economics don't work that way, though. Today there are
> the resources to keep the whole world happy. It won't happens
> because there is a jungle out there that's called free market. If
> Space settlement goes it will be because there is an economic
reason
> to finance them. Not charity.
>
> > allowing more time to devote resources >to
> > space migration than to dealing with mounting billions living
under
> > increasingly strained infrastructures. All enviornmental problems
> > ultimately stem from the maintainence and side effects of billions
> > more people than Earth was ever meant to sustain.
>
> What's the use of the environment if there is no people to enjoy it?
>
> > Someone telling you space travel is demonic based on relogious
> >dogma
> > would sound pretty silly, so it is with other aspects of human
> >destiny
> > we dare to consider and act upon which may be contrary to this or
> >that
> > religous agenda.
>
> Yes, Religion is the big evil. They have the very bad manner to
> preach. And to tell us we are siners.
>
> > As an example Saudi Arabia was against the Moon
> > Landings, and if we try again we may face the equivelent of the
> > crazies who bomb abortion clinics, all powered by burning
religious
> > zeal directed towards trying to control others lives.
>
> Well, not only religious extremists are nuts. Some progresists are
> very fanatics too.
>
> You should look the face of pleasure each time an abortionist
doctor
> has well he kills a fetus. And the happiness he receives the money
> for the attentions.
>
> Omar
>

Ultimately thanks to our 'progressive' social policies Western
Civilization is going under. More people are retiring and going on
social programs than are being born to take their places in the work
force. In order to keep these social welfare schemes going more
people should be working than collecting. But the ultimate price
these liberal social policies have brought is we are stagnating.
Where our predecesors went out into the world, we're rotting in
place. If the world of our 'bigoted' grandfathers were in place we
would be having this conversation in L4 or L5 rather than here.
They're the ones who dreamed of moving into space. We're the ones who
are refusing to get going.

Still I have hope, in the US at least we're beginning to undo the
damage. The House is solid. The Senate is coming. A couple more seats
on the supreme court and it is over. Then we can look skyward again.

Our 'bigoted' grandparents looked to space? Sure, if they were white.
A lot of our grandparents looked to the day that they didn't have to
send their kids to an inferior school, just because those kids were
the 'wrong' color. A lot of our grandparents looked to the day that
they didn't have to sit in the back of the bus.

The "good old days" sucked. Yes, they really did. And we weren't any
closer to having a space-faring society than we are today.

Indeed, the Golden Age of Space was in the turbulent 1960's, with
their civil rights marches, the women's liberation movement,
desegregation, greater availability of contraception and an attendant
sexual revolution, and all that other dreadfully liberal stuff. Then
we had a conservative backlash, the further Apollo missions were
canceled, and we so abandoned space that many young people today doubt
that we ever landed on the Moon at all!

Let's stop pining for a past of moral wonderfulness that never existed
and move into the future. Getting rid of the government's new-found
power to listen in on whim and dissapear citizens on whim would be a
good place to start.

I wonder how much space infrastructure you could build with
$289,400,000,000?

Oh, about religious groups being "the big evil. They have the very bad
manner to preach. And to tell us we are siners." Hey, if that's all
they had the "bad manners" to do, I wouldn't have a problem.
Unfortunately, many of them also have the "bad manners" to pressure
the gub'mint to pass laws telling us "sinners" how to live our lives,
whether we happen to share the religious views of that group or not.
And when that doesn't rid the world sin, some of them have the bad
manners to chuck bombs.

As long as they limit themselves to preaching their values, I say good
for them. But stop trying to use the force of government or the force
of explosives to MAKE the rest of us follow their values.