i was wondering what all the people in this forum thought of this
idea. i had been playing around with it for a while. I've shot as
many holes in it as i could, then repaired the idea until i could not
find any more hole. the theory of this method is that if i can make a
bullet proof idea, it might actually be workable. then perhaps
someone might run with the finished idea. so I'm inviting everyone to
see how many holes they can find with my idea. then ill try to patch
them.

the first part of the idea is based on something that i read about in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network.
basically as i understand it, is that if you chose the right pair of
orbits, you can change from an L5 orbit to a mars flight with
relatively small amount of energy. the problem with this is that it
would be a very long mission. something closer to the lines of the
star trek 5 year mission than the 18 month mars mission NASA is
planning. of course with a mission of this length, you would not want
to have a small crew, now would you want to spend it in zero g. it
would likely start with another long term mission.

1st mission. capture of and the beginning of conversion of an
asteroid into the ship. this would require something along the lines
of 10 to 20 people in a relatively small ship, being sent to capture
a asteroid, then, using various methods used on earth, mine, smelt
and create the ship from the material. the best method of send them
out would be using solar sails (light) but that would require much
time. on the other hand it would not require the present of the crew
the entire time its accelerating. the initial payload would include a
fairly small portion of the sail and the main frame plus the computer
equipment to control it. once deployed in LEO it would begin to
accelerate. as it did, more components would be sent out, using
steady bigger engines. some of the component would be sent out using
comparatively larger sails so that they could catch up. once they
did, they would either add the sails to the ship or the sails would
then come back for more component. the main system would us the moons
gravity for a boost and eventually would have the speed to break
orbit. at this point all the components would have been added.
depending on if it had the speed (or was able to accelerate) to
intercept the asteroid, or not, the crew would rocket out in a more
conventional rocket doing a rendezvous with the ship. at this point
they should be able to rendezvous with the asteroid in short time.
the ship would be the type that the living section could be spun up
to give some gravity effect.

Once there they start by using one of several methods to stabilize
its tumble. then they attach to it and using the sail begin to alter
its orbit. it would likely take several years (hopefully less than 5)
during which it would be near enough to earth more than once
(hopefully) to get resupplies sail ships (with only consumables on
board it would not have a major speed requirement, only being there
when they need it) sent out from earth. this would also give them
more sails to either fix damaged ones or to increase their orbital
changes. if the ITN works out, it might help them get back sooner. by
the time they get back to earth a large portion of the ship hull
would have been completed.

once back to earth. the interior would be worked up and a crew would
begin assembling there. they would live and work in a 1 g environment
building the remainder of the station. what i envision is two rings,
counter rotating on a non-rotating axial hub, where the solar sail is
attached and where the ships dock.

once all is assembled, they once again use the sail, this time to
accelerate into the ITN orbit to get to mars. depending if they are
needing the acceleration or if it would be better to coast, they
could turn the sail where they need it. as the approach mars they
start using the sail to get into position to transfer to the mars
orbit. in the time between, they would have a long time to use the
fact that they do not have an atmosphere interfering with space
observation. plus they would have a zero g (or close enough
considering the accleration for the sail would be very slow) area for
experments.

after reaching mars, they would seperate into several teams, some of
which would go to various points on mars surface, others to mars's
moons, and others to stay in the ship. after a compairatively long
time on various mission, they would return (unless they decided to
risk colonizing mars), and the ship would return to earth. some of
the crew might decided that they wanted to stay with the ship after
visiting earth again.

more missions using the same ship would be possible. or possible
people deciding to coloize mars. the knowledge used would lead to
more ships of this type and to full g, permantely manned stations.

>more missions using the same ship would be possible. or possible
>people deciding to coloize mars. the knowledge used would lead to
>more ships of this type and to full g, permantely manned stations.

One of the most attactive features of the idea is the potential to convert
rabid Zubrinites into people who appreciate permanent orbital colonies. You
should be nominated for a Nobel peace prize for an idea to bridge the gap
between the warring groups.

Brad W

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brad Walsh

> One of the most attactive features of the idea is the potential
> to convert rabid Zubrinites into people who appreciate permanent
> orbital colonies. You should be nominated for a Nobel peace prize
> for an idea to bridge the gap between the warring groups.

I'd be cautious in expressing much optimism that Zubrin's followers
could be persuaded to see any value in orbital concepts. It's
interesting to me that one has a great deal of difficulty getting a Mars
enthusiast to see the benefits which High Frontier could provide to any
really large effort to settle Mars.

I would certainly agree that manned explorations of Mars can plausibly
come before large, Earthlike habitats in HEO. I could even agree that
the first, simpler manned explorations of Mars can plausibly come before
use of space resources. But to me, use of space resources in HEO should
certainly precede any large program involving sending several thousands
of tons of equipment to Mars. But more than once I've had a Mars
enthusiast insist that we must first make Mars into the second home of
humanity, and only after that is accomplished perhaps back up to Earth
orbit and maybe begin making use of lunar resources there.

I talk a bit about this tendency in an article at
http://members.aol.com/howiecombs/somewhere_else.htm, and offer a
possible explanation.

I think down deep, there's a realization that in any universe in which
large, Earthlike habitats are being constructed in HEO, there's not
going to be much impetus to terraform Mars, and such a terraformation
remains central to the hopes and dreams of the Mars enthusiast.

Regards,

Mike Combs

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Walsh"
>
> >more missions using the same ship would be possible. or possible
> >people deciding to coloize mars. the knowledge used would lead to
> >more ships of this type and to full g, permantely manned stations.
>
> One of the most attactive features of the idea is the potential to
convert
> rabid Zubrinites into people who appreciate permanent orbital
colonies. You
> should be nominated for a Nobel peace prize for an idea to bridge
the gap
> between the warring groups.
>
> Brad W
>
thank you.

the things is i have never understood how ppl can say do one or the
other. in my vision of it (yes only mine i know), the two are
connected. you cant build ships to carry 10's of thousands of
settlers (10 at a time would take forever) without using the
resources of space which requires a space based system for the
workers. at the same time, mars is visible, so john q public does not
need any imagination to see it therefore he can see it being the same
as his own home. that makes it something he would be willing to help
get to. that makes the two of them one and the same. Its the journey
that matters.

the us goverment has made an commentment to reach mars, and that
commentment could lead to full colonization of space.

On Jul 6, 2006, at 11:38 AM, Robert wrote:

> the things is i have never understood how ppl can say do one or the
> other. in my vision of it (yes only mine i know), the two are
> connected.

Human diversity almost guarantees that both orbital and planetary
colonization will be done. Planets do have advantages of readily
available raw materials, and will just seem more "secure" to some,
but they have all that stinky gravity to deal with. Terraforming
seems out of the question to me. Not only would it be enormously
wasteful and expensive, but it would be a shame to spoil the natural
beauty of other planets. In fact, I almost feel a moral problem with
terraforming (for what it's worth). If you want Earth, go to Earth.
Leave Mars as Mars. I think planets will be colonized, but the people
there will have to live in enclosed habitats at the bottom of a
gravity well. Of course Mars and the Moon have much less gravity than
the Earth, so when we develop cheap systems to escape Earth, escaping
Mars and the Moon will be even cheaper.

doug

i believe ive read recently that nasa has downgraded the number of NEO
asteroids to about 500 to 1000. that still leaves a lot of material to
build stations and ships out of.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "levi1_ca" wrote:

In a 1999 NSS convention I proposed a method to reach mars by
deflecting an asteroid, on a cycler Earth-mars trajectory, equip it
and reuse it as needed.
Recently Nasa is funding a study about an asteroid mission to Mars.
I believe asteroids , when properly utilized , will solve many
problems and create an interplanetary economy
Regards
giorgio

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Robert" wrote:
>
> i was wondering what all the people in this forum thought of this
> idea. i had been playing around with it for a while. I've shot as
> many holes in it as i could, then repaired the idea until i could
not
> find any more hole. the theory of this method is that if i can
make a
> bullet proof idea, it might actually be workable. then perhaps
> someone might run with the finished idea. so I'm inviting everyone
to
> see how many holes they can find with my idea. then ill try to
patch
> them.
>
> the first part of the idea is based on something that i read about
in
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interplanetary_Transport_Network.
> basically as i understand it, is that if you chose the right pair
of
> orbits, you can change from an L5 orbit to a mars flight with
> relatively small amount of energy. the problem with this is that
it
> would be a very long mission. something closer to the lines of the
> star trek 5 year mission than the 18 month mars mission NASA is
> planning. of course with a mission of this length, you would not
want
> to have a small crew, now would you want to spend it in zero g.
it
> would likely start with another long term mission.
>
> 1st mission. capture of and the beginning of conversion of an
> asteroid into the ship. this would require something along the
lines
> of 10 to 20 people in a relatively small ship, being sent to
capture
> a asteroid, then, using various methods used on earth, mine, smelt
> and create the ship from the material. the best method of send
them
> out would be using solar sails (light) but that would require much
> time. on the other hand it would not require the present of the
crew
> the entire time its accelerating. the initial payload would
include a
> fairly small portion of the sail and the main frame plus the
computer
> equipment to control it. once deployed in LEO it would begin to
> accelerate. as it did, more components would be sent out, using
> steady bigger engines. some of the component would be sent out
using
> comparatively larger sails so that they could catch up. once they
> did, they would either add the sails to the ship or the sails
would
> then come back for more component. the main system would us the
moons
> gravity for a boost and eventually would have the speed to break
> orbit. at this point all the components would have been added.
> depending on if it had the speed (or was able to accelerate) to
> intercept the asteroid, or not, the crew would rocket out in a
more
> conventional rocket doing a rendezvous with the ship. at this
point
> they should be able to rendezvous with the asteroid in short time.
> the ship would be the type that the living section could be spun
up
> to give some gravity effect.
>
> Once there they start by using one of several methods to stabilize
> its tumble. then they attach to it and using the sail begin to
alter
> its orbit. it would likely take several years (hopefully less than
5)
> during which it would be near enough to earth more than once
> (hopefully) to get resupplies sail ships (with only consumables on
> board it would not have a major speed requirement, only being
there
> when they need it) sent out from earth. this would also give them
> more sails to either fix damaged ones or to increase their orbital
> changes. if the ITN works out, it might help them get back sooner.
by
> the time they get back to earth a large portion of the ship hull
> would have been completed.
>
> once back to earth. the interior would be worked up and a crew
would
> begin assembling there. they would live and work in a 1 g
environment
> building the remainder of the station. what i envision is two
rings,
> counter rotating on a non-rotating axial hub, where the solar sail
is
> attached and where the ships dock.
>
> once all is assembled, they once again use the sail, this time to
> accelerate into the ITN orbit to get to mars. depending if they
are
> needing the acceleration or if it would be better to coast, they
> could turn the sail where they need it. as the approach mars they
> start using the sail to get into position to transfer to the mars
> orbit. in the time between, they would have a long time to use the
> fact that they do not have an atmosphere interfering with space
> observation. plus they would have a zero g (or close enough
> considering the accleration for the sail would be very slow) area
for
> experments.
>
> after reaching mars, they would seperate into several teams, some
of
> which would go to various points on mars surface, others to mars's
> moons, and others to stay in the ship. after a compairatively long
> time on various mission, they would return (unless they decided to
> risk colonizing mars), and the ship would return to earth. some of
> the crew might decided that they wanted to stay with the ship
after