Background: I'm a software engineer, working on starting my own company, but also doing consulting to make ends meet. I also, obviously, have a keen interest in space settlement. If possible, I'd like to put these needs and interests together in the following way:

I'm thinking about writing a program -- part game, part serious design tool -- in which you would design and simulate space settlements. You'd pick the geometry, material, and other properties of the various parts, and position them on a 3D view of your model. The app would calculate moments of inertia, radiation levels, space per person, and so on, and add up your costs (both initial and resupply). You could experiment with natural vs. artificial lighting, the rotational stability of different configurations, external vs. internal shielding, and so on. During simulation, you'd see the rotating parts of your habitat rotate, and could fly around to examine it from various angles.

The program would have two modes: in "CAD" mode, there would be no artificial constraints on what you can do; you just design whatever you want, and then it can generate reports and diagrams and whatnot. This would be a big help if anybody wants to design a serious habitat. (For example, unless my math is off, I think a recent settlement design is too long by almost a factor of 2 -- this program would have caught that mistake.) You'd also be able to fiddle with fundamental assumptions in this mode, such as the cost of various materials or how much pseudogravity the colonists need to maintain health.

In "game" mode, there'd be a serious of challenges (or "levels" in standard game parlance). Each one has certain win conditions (e.g. support 10,000 people with at least so-much space per person and radiation levels less than 0.25 rad/yr), and constraints (e.g. a limited budget and fixed material costs). You don't get to change the assumptions in this mode.

So that's the idea -- but it's a fair amount of work. I can't justify doing it just for the fun of it; I just don't have enough time. So (at last!) my questions:

1. Who here would be sufficiently interested in such an app to cough up, say, $30 for it? Or, does anyone want to be the producer (i.e. hire me to write it, and then reap the rewards)?

2. Does anyone have connections to an appropriate publisher (e.g. Imaginova)?

3. Any other ideas for how to make this better, or how to make a decent business proposition out of it?

I really would love to just write it as open-source as a service to the community, but just I can't afford that right now. Maybe it's just not to be. But, if you have any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em.

Thanks,
- Joe

Joe Strout -- joe@...

dont know how to help with your questions save that id likely try it.

one thing you would need to take into account is where the matterials
came from. you said the program would count the cost, but if the
matterial were from space what cost would you count? how many
manhours would you credit the asteroid capture company? If it came
from the moon, would you take into account the cost of the base?

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, joe@... wrote:
>
> Background: I'm a software engineer, working on starting my own
company, but also doing consulting to make ends meet. I also,
obviously, have a keen interest in space settlement. If possible,
I'd like to put these needs and interests together in the following
way:
>
> I'm thinking about writing a program -- part game, part serious
design tool -- in which you would design and simulate space
settlements. You'd pick the geometry, material, and other properties
of the various parts, and position them on a 3D view of your model.
The app would calculate moments of inertia, radiation levels, space
per person, and so on, and add up your costs (both initial and
resupply). You could experiment with natural vs. artificial
lighting, the rotational stability of different configurations,
external vs. internal shielding, and so on. During simulation, you'd
see the rotating parts of your habitat rotate, and could fly around
to examine it from various angles.
>
> The program would have two modes: in "CAD" mode, there would be no
artificial constraints on what you can do; you just design whatever
you want, and then it can generate reports and diagrams and whatnot.
This would be a big help if anybody wants to design a serious
habitat. (For example, unless my math is off, I think a recent
settlement design is too long by almost a factor of 2 -- this program
would have caught that mistake.) You'd also be able to fiddle with
fundamental assumptions in this mode, such as the cost of various
materials or how much pseudogravity the colonists need to maintain
health.
>
> In "game" mode, there'd be a serious of challenges (or "levels" in
standard game parlance). Each one has certain win conditions (e.g.
support 10,000 people with at least so-much space per person and
radiation levels less than 0.25 rad/yr), and constraints (e.g. a
limited budget and fixed material costs). You don't get to change
the assumptions in this mode.
>
> So that's the idea -- but it's a fair amount of work. I can't
justify doing it just for the fun of it; I just don't have enough
time. So (at last!) my questions:
>
> 1. Who here would be sufficiently interested in such an app to
cough up, say, $30 for it? Or, does anyone want to be the producer
(i.e. hire me to write it, and then reap the rewards)?
>
> 2. Does anyone have connections to an appropriate publisher (e.g.
Imaginova)?
>
> 3. Any other ideas for how to make this better, or how to make a
decent business proposition out of it?
>
> I really would love to just write it as open-source as a service to
the community, but just I can't afford that right now. Maybe it's
just not to be. But, if you have any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em.

On Jul 07, 2006, at 18:27 UTC, Robert wrote:

> dont know how to help with your questions save that id likely try it.

Well, that's helpful in itself.

> one thing you would need to take into account is where the matterials
> came from. you said the program would count the cost, but if the
> matterial were from space what cost would you count? how many
> manhours would you credit the asteroid capture company? If it came
> from the moon, would you take into account the cost of the base?

Not exactly; the cost of each material would be upon delivery to your construction site, as if you're buying them from another company. So this would be an input to the program; coming up with those costs would involve a separate cost model. In free-design mode, you could set those costs however you like; in game mode, they would be preset (though may vary from challenge to challenge) and you'd just have to work with them.

But the presets would generally assume a reasonable amount of infrastructure in place, as there must almost certainly be by the time we're building space habitats. For example, it seems reasonable to assume that aluminum can come from the Moon and is fairly cheap, whereas things like iron and nitrogen may be substantially more expensive.

For the easier challenges, we might claim that there is a space elevator or some other cheap means of getting materials from Earth, so that all materials are only a little more than what they cost on the ground. For harder challenges, we'd remove those and assume that anything you can't find on the Moon has to be launched at something like the Falcon's launch costs.

But in any case, actually modeling the mining and refining of materials is beyond the scope of this app.

Best,
- Joe

Joe Strout -- joe@...

You seem to be describing a sort of "Space Habitat Tycoon" game,
similar to the "Railroad Tycoon" and "Roller Coaster Tycoon" games
which have been very popular. Looks like you could be on to
something. The CAD version is something RCT lacks, unless you
download unofficial "trainers," and even then it isn't exactly what
you are talking about.

--- In spacesettlers, joe wrote:

> 1. Who here would be sufficiently interested in such an app to cough
> up, say, $30 for it?

I would. Keep in mind that I am not a wealthy man, and don't remember
the last time I spent $30 on a single piece of software (not counting
when I bought the computer $$$). But I'd scrape together three
Alexander Hamiltons for this.

> Or, does anyone want to be the producer (i.e. hire me to write it,
> and then reap the rewards)?

Would that I could.

> 2. Does anyone have connections to an appropriate publisher (e.g.
> Imaginova)?

Would that I did.

> 3. Any other ideas for how to make this better, or how to make a
> decent business proposition out of it?

You need to either include or make available as an add-on, a mapping
program. As for the rest, well...

In another post on this same subject, you write:

> But in any case, actually modeling the mining and refining of
> materials is beyond the scope of this app.

Yes. It would be a bit much for the player, as well.

But now think about this. You could have a whole series of modeling
programs/games here:
Moon Miner's Challenge
Bulk Transit: Cislunar
Space Hotel: The Game

and of course
Space Habitat: Make It Work (or whatever you decide to call it)

Wow. Yes, my answer to Question #2 is "Would that I could."

Hi Joe,

What I would suggest is that the design tools and a game should be two different projects. Naturally the design tools are unlikely to make any money, but a game if elegantly designed should be a money spinner. With an interesting story line it should do much to educate the future generation regarding the promises of space habitats.

Incidentally I have still to see one of the newer games with a lot of computer power and a lot of bang, bang, approach the elegance of the 'Prince of Prussia' game which used to run on first generation PCs!! Great art is always simple.

Are any games currently available on the Space Hab theme?

Regards,
Selvaraj

Joe wrote Friday, July 07, 2006 10:52 PM
Subject: [spacesettlers] any interest in a space habitat design app?

Background: I'm a software engineer, working on starting my own company, but also doing consulting to make ends meet. I also, obviously, have a keen interest in space settlement. If possible, I'd like to put these needs and interests together in the following way:

I'm thinking about writing a program -- part game, part serious design tool -- in which you would design and simulate space settlements. You'd pick the geometry, material, and other properties of the various parts, and position them on a 3D view of your model. The app would calculate moments of inertia, radiation levels, space per person, and so on, and add up your costs (both initial and resupply). You could experiment with natural vs. artificial lighting, the rotational stability of different configurations, external vs. internal shielding, and so on. During simulation, you'd see the rotating parts of your habitat rotate, and could fly around to examine it from various angles.

The program would have two modes: in "CAD" mode, there would be no artificial constraints on what you can do; you just design whatever you want, and then it can generate reports and diagrams and whatnot. This would be a big help if anybody wants to design a serious habitat. (For example, unless my math is off, I think a recent settlement design is too long by almost a factor of 2 -- this program would have caught that mistake.) You'd also be able to fiddle with fundamental assumptions in this mode, such as the cost of various materials or how much pseudogravity the colonists need to maintain health.

In "game" mode, there'd be a serious of challenges (or "levels" in standard game parlance). Each one has certain win conditions (e.g. support 10,000 people with at least so-much space per person and radiation levels less than 0.25 rad/yr), and constraints (e.g. a limited budget and fixed material costs). You don't get to change the assumptions in this mode.

So that's the idea -- but it's a fair amount of work. I can't justify doing it just for the fun of it; I just don't have enough time. So (at last!) my questions:

1. Who here would be sufficiently interested in such an app to cough up, say, $30 for it? Or, does anyone want to be the producer (i.e. hire me to write it, and then reap the rewards)?

2. Does anyone have connections to an appropriate publisher (e.g. Imaginova)?

3. Any other ideas for how to make this better, or how to make a decent business proposition out of it?

I really would love to just write it as open-source as a service to the community, but just I can't afford that right now. Maybe it's just not to be. But, if you have any ideas, I'd love to hear 'em.

Thanks,
- Joe

--
Joe Strout -- joe@...