We all know that SSPS can in theory solve the world's energy problems. But
could it also solve others? I'm toying with a novel in which a cylinder
colony has to deal with an uncouth planetary nation which lacks space
capacity.

Their solution is to place an SSPS in GSO, mount cameras and
JHPSSL-descended gigawatt lasers on it with 200m wide adaptive mirrors, and
programme it to destroy anything human or man made crossing the nation's
borders. Without international trade (the colony believes) the nation would
fall into the dark ages and become more moderate, either because survival
takes a higher priority than extremism, all the extremists die out, or the
majority population rebels against idiocy.

Assuming that no third party interferes, and a reasonable amount of second
world industrialisation, what are the problems of this proposal, and what
might the planetary nation do to either destroy the satellite or make border
crossing survivable again? Personally I think they're probably SOOL, but I
might be wrong. How effective would this be?

John

On 7/6/07, ANTIcarrot wrote:
(...)
> Assuming that no third party interferes, and a reasonable amount of second
> world industrialisation, what are the problems of this proposal, and what
> might the planetary nation do to either destroy the satellite or make border
> crossing survivable again? Personally I think they're probably SOOL, but I
> might be wrong. How effective would this be?
(...)

Intriguing scenario, but can't the Earth-bound nation just drill
tunnels passing below its borders, and then make commerce with other
countries unnoticed?

John,

I think you could make a case for success of the 'spacers' over the
ground-lubbers barring the interference of 3rd parties. The only
particular problem I see is 3rd party aircraft flying over said evil
nation's territory and getting zapped by your weapon. This could lead
to undesirable retribution causing damage to the spacers facilities.

Your embargo will not cause the end of communications by the 'bad
guys' and third parties. Any of their allies could achieve space
flight or effective beam type weapons and build or buy them for use
against your spacers. In other words, if you are going to take them
out, take out their power generation and transmission capabilities and
throw them into the stone age again.

Also, there is the possibility of tunneling under the border. (check
the DMZ between the Koreas and the Mexico/U.S.A. border, among others)
I doubt your zapper can hit it if it cannot see it.

Good luck with the novel. Sounds interesting.

Harvey

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "ANTIcarrot"
wrote:
>
> We all know that SSPS can in theory solve the world's energy
problems. But
> could it also solve others? I'm toying with a novel in which a cylinder
> colony has to deal with an uncouth planetary nation which lacks space
> capacity.
>
> Their solution is to place an SSPS in GSO, mount cameras and
> JHPSSL-descended gigawatt lasers on it with 200m wide adaptive
mirrors, and
> programme it to destroy anything human or man made crossing the nation's
> borders. Without international trade (the colony believes) the
nation would
> fall into the dark ages and become more moderate, either because
survival
> takes a higher priority than extremism, all the extremists die out,
or the
> majority population rebels against idiocy.
>
> Assuming that no third party interferes, and a reasonable amount of
second
> world industrialisation, what are the problems of this proposal, and
what
> might the planetary nation do to either destroy the satellite or
make border
> crossing survivable again? Personally I think they're probably SOOL,
but I

I think the assumption that there *would* be
third-party involvement would make for a more
interesting story.

Ed

--- hetrevillion wrote:

Thank you Lucio, Harvey, & Ed for your comments. Because I'm trying to
create a water-tight plot-device I'd like to answer some of the points
you've raised and ask once again if anyone foresees any problems or
counter-tactics that might ruin the plan. Some of the issues are also
applicable for a regular SSPS, since as a national utility they would be
military targets.

Tunnels:
Yes, they could be dug on the small scale without being noticed. But any
substantial distribution would be observable (or at least traceable) from
orbit. On a large scale construction would be almost impossible to conceal.
At that point it becomes a simple matter of retargeting the lasers.

Communications & power:
Yes, quite right. Hammer the major transmitters (ham radio's probably not
worth dealing with) and radar stations. Though I'd target the pylons
carrying the power away rather than the station itself. Lasers in this case
woudl be ccomplimented by flying I-Beams. I did the math and worked out that
if dropped from orbit they'd still be going about M6 when they hit the
ground.

Space access:
Even giving the nation SSTO capacity, an object in GSO is going to be a
tricky target for them. It would take hours at the very least (and days more
likely) for a warhead to get close enough to do damage. If the M-SSPS can
hit targets on the ground, it would be capable of hitting them in LEO or
GTO. Sneak attacks against an I-STARS (~stareing IR tracking system) would
be problamatic at best. And something miles wide and long is going to be
pretty difficult to take out at all.

Collateral damage:
Hitting innocent third parties should be avoided. But two weeks notice
should be more than good enough. Any planes straying off course could be
contacted by tight-beam radio, or flashed by the lasers as a warning. Anyone
deliberately flouting the embargo is of course not innocent.

NB: If anyone thinks this is a shallow analogy of certian military problems
in totadys world, I'm not goiung to claim otherwise. ;) With the ability to
strike from a point of complete safety, have a gods eye view over almost
everything, and no troops on the ground to be killed, would this scheme work
better or worst than current methodology?

John

A lot of your plot is going to revolve around these
plans and counter plans. I wouldn't make your
orbiting guys completely invulnerable and immune from
attack, and would definitely have the tunnels and
flights and other counter plans. Lots of diplomatic
stuff too. The story as described so far reminds me a
little of The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, and although
the moon guys in that story were the typical
Heinleinian ubermenchen, it wasn't a complete cakewalk
for them either. The harder you make it for your
protagonists, the better the story will be.

Ed

--- ANTIcarrot wrote:

Technology allows for lopsided conflicts. Politics is the way they play out.

This is best as a political story with technology as the background, rather than the technology at the top. No matter how its written there is always someone critical of how the technology is or isn't used.

I wrote some comments below:
From: ANTIcarrot dante_feditech@...
"Even giving the nation SSTO capacity, an object in GSO is going to be a tricky target for them. It would take hours at the very least (and days more
likely) for a warhead to get close enough to do damage. If the M-SSPS can hit targets on the ground, it would be capable of hitting them in LEO or
GTO. Sneak attacks against an I-STARS (~stareing IR tracking system) would be problamatic at best. And something miles wide and long is going to be
pretty difficult to take out at all."
Was the basis for the conflict philosophical / religious/ ethnic / resource driven?

What are the capabilities of the less developed nation?

Can the smaller nation launch internet / software attacks? (or their sympathizers in other areas?)

If they can't directly attack the weapons platform, they will find a softer target.

If they have SSTO, do they have medium range missiles? Ability to strike at a neighboring nation?
Biological weapons? These could be carried by agents or launched for delivery a few hundred km away. Denied centralized electricity and airspace doesn't necessarily eliminate access to what might be common biological tools. (Compare the state of genetic research today with our space faring abilities - 2007 and extrapolate what their respective state when buildign the first SSPS.)

Will there be materials to better conceal objects from aerial viewing?

Could they, with or without third party assistence, direct nearby GEO satellites to change position, possibly risking the weaponized SSPS? (it is a story, after all) Orbital debris is a concern with all other spacefaring nations. (Would there be the ability / responsibility to clean up large debris? Would this environmental cost be the responsbility of the spacer nation owning the equipment? What treaties would exist among spacefaring nations to handle such things?)

Can this nation direct some of its own LEO satellites to collide with other countries' LEO satellites?- thus, spreading the conflict / elevating the tension between nations.

Speaking of the other parties: The capabilities / concerns of other nations or groups would play a significant role.

What about others providing critical information allowing the minor nation to monitor / interrupt communication with the sattellite?

You imply a goal is to intentionally reduce a society to a low technological level. Why would other advanced nations allow that to happen?

Tunneling:
"Yes, they could be dug on the small scale without being noticed. But any substantial distribution would be observable (or at least traceable) fromorbit. On a large scale construction would be almost impossible to conceal. At that point it becomes a simple matter of retargeting the lasers."

I agree with you 99.9%. Depends how deep they tunnel. Since the 1960s many tunnels deeper than 1 km have been dug and some of them (gold mines in South Africa) extend for several kilometers through very hard rock. These miners and shafts were designed to removed hundreds or thousands of tons per day from the ground. Old mines could be reactivated that are near a border. Of course an abandoned mining operation might not be on a list of sites to monitor. Would that allow enough access to be significant to the story?

There are also natural tunnels / underground rivers and these can run for many km.

Seems in every embargo, there is no shortage of smugglers.

Is it possible to send smaller remote controlled vehicles across the boarder without notice? Something that the satellite system might not readily ID as such?
Or weaponizing animals (if you want to mix low tech and high tech since birds can migrate over some distance.) What about their ability to harm the environment for a nearby nation (radiation / chemicals / biological agents?) Not a great thought, but a thought.

Spacer limitations:
Unless the spacers can monitor everything all the time, it seems there must be limits to what they know and when they would know about it. Holes in their system will be discovered and exploited.

The weapon must take time to aim at each target. If one SSPS is used, the embargo would take time to enforce and it might take a long time for one such station to take out all major targets. That would give the other nation time to plan some actions defensive and offensive. (I am thinking months...1 target every 20 minutes? What aiming / firing rate might you give them?)

Significant use of the weapon would require maintenance. During this time (which could take days), there would be no offensive action. Another thought: If you can't affect the weapon - how about its supply system? If it is repaired via remote control, is it possible to electronically hijack that system?

Any weaknesses in the technology or supply chain would be of strategic value.

"NB: If anyone thinks this is a shallow analogy of certian military problems in totadys world, I'm not goiung to claim otherwise. ;) With the ability to
strike from a point of complete safety, have a gods eye view over almost everything, and no troops on the ground to be killed, would this scheme work
better or worst than current methodology?

For the side with the military SSPS, better for capital cost, but likely a PR mess. There would reach a point when other nations would sympathize with the underdog. Every non-space faring nation would be extremely uneasy with this lopsided event, especially the longer it lasts. Neutral nations would call for an end to the embargo. Even those small parties initially in favor of an action would become luekwarm and call for an end. There is also the fact that some nations with similar capability may not like the use of the technology for this purpose - or they may not be in political agreement with this action. If so, one of these advanced nations would act to subvert the other. A conflict appearing too easy may adjust the balance of power one way, the more powerful nation struggling in such an imbalance confruntation, would change polical power in another way.

The story would have many levels. Political groups would seek to help the beleagured nation. This may be either with information or more substatantial assistence. The information might involve limitations of the space technology and suggested countermeasures.

Was the denial policy widely supported before it was initiated? Once initiated, it would be hard for the Spacer group to stop for political reasons.

Invulnerable?? Immune from attack?? These things are impossible..
Have you ever heard the saying "Where there is a will, there is a
way"? This is very true.. There is always a way.. Especially when you
are talking about suppression and containment.. It's a basic animal
instinct to overcome obstacles.. Even at the ultimate cost of self
sacrifice.. Eventually any weapon system or defensive system can be
defeated and especially when they are billed as "Invulnerable". That's
normally when they are lax from arrogance and are about to be beaten..
Anyone remember the "undefeatable" army?? They were the Romans...
Or how about the "unsinkable" cruise liner?? It was the Titanic..

It might take time, maybe even generations, but eventually the
aggressor will lose.. Even with the most advanced technology you
simply just can not defeat the will to live and be free...
(That is, without total annihilation)

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Ed Minchau wrote: