Hi, spacesettlers!

I used to participate on this forum four or five years back and enjoyed the discussions very much. We had some memorable ones! Could I ask for your input again? Back then I was planning a fiction book, and I still am. (!) I am at the plotting stage. I want my protanonists to 'run for it' to an out-of-the-way place that could conceivably be within reach in say, fifty years, given that in those fifty years we got ourselves at least one functioning colony and had sustained that level of interest and commitment in many other space-y areas like asteroid mining and so forth. This place would be reachable yet somehow, someway not so easily accessible. I would like it to function the way the farthest-flung households in Scotland or northern England functioned in the 1700's, say. You could get there with an army but it would be hard--legal and physical impediments. So those areas tended to collect rebels.

Envision it for me. Could there be a large asteroid on the 'dark side' of something or other? Could we have evolved (or devolved, or revolved) to a system of ownership of asteroids where ownership was based on 'first touch,' like planting a flag used to be when the continent of American was open season? That's what I mean by legal impediments to invasion, and the 'dark side' of something (with the possibilities of disruption of electronic 'touch' as well as visual, from earth, etc.)is what I mean by physical. There might be people on the list now who could think of other kinds of impediments to invasion, like the ability to hide in another dimension, etc. etc. but I'm less interested in that kind.

I've been lurking and wishing the topic well. But--All this time and we're no closer to real public interest in space than we were back in 2006. Worse, in fact. Also we seem to have become stupider, in the public forum. We seem to be devolving. It's hard to accept. But I don't want to get off track--can you give me a great space hideaway?

I don't really know what I'm talking about, but this is fiction!

I remember that pervious thread of post and hope you got some use from it.

But what I wanted to address is your contention about the backward slide of
interest in space.
I agree with you and even addressed it those 5 or so years ago.
I am on about 50 space related discussion groups and the traffic on all of
them have been very low or even non existent for far too long.

I do not know what the answer is but someone - somewhere will have to
actually do something more than dream and talk.

John Wayne

In a message dated 8/3/2010 10:49:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
janet_baker76@... writes:

Hi, spacesettlers!

I used to participate on this forum four or five years back and enjoyed
the discussions very much. We had some memorable ones! Could I ask for your
input again? Back then I was planning a fiction book, and I still am. (!) I
am at the plotting stage. I want my protanonists to 'run for it' to an
out-of-the-way place that could conceivably be within reach in say, fifty
years, given that in those fifty years we got ourselves at least one functioning
colony and had sustained that level of interest and commitment in many
other space-y areas like asteroid mining and so forth. This place would be
reachable yet somehow, someway not so easily accessible. I would like it to
function the way the farthest-flung households in Scotland or northern England
functioned in the 1700's, say. You could get there with an army but it
would be hard--legal and physical impediments. So those areas tended to
collect rebels.

Envision it for me. Could there be a large asteroid on the 'dark side' of
something or other? Could we have evolved (or devolved, or revolved) to a
system of ownership of asteroids where ownership was based on 'first touch,'
like planting a flag used to be when the continent of American was open
season? That's what I mean by legal impediments to invasion, and the 'dark
side' of something (with the possibilities of disruption of electronic
'touch' as well as visual, from earth, etc.)is what I mean by physical. There
might be people on the list now who could think of other kinds of impediments
to invasion, like the ability to hide in another dimension, etc. etc. but
I'm less interested in that kind.

I've been lurking and wishing the topic well. But--All this time and we're
no closer to real public interest in space than we were back in 2006.
Worse, in fact. Also we seem to have become stupider, in the public forum. We
seem to be devolving. It's hard to accept. But I don't want to get off
track--can you give me a great space hideaway?

I don't really know what I'm talking about, but this is fiction!

JW, yeah, my frustration index has been climbing apace with the seeming disinterest in what MUST be our nearly sole source of salvation on this planet, namely getting off it! I simply don't know what to do about it. If I had money, I'd be tempted to build a kevlar wrapped styrofoam cylinder, strap on a couple of solid fuel boosters, float it to the top of the atmosphere with an array of super-pressure helium ballons and put my own habitat into orbit. Sadly, however, you don't do something like that on SS disability income. I DON'T know why SOMEONE with as much frustration as me and a whole lot more money hasn't done just that...there's simply GOT to be a way. The obstacle just aren't THAT insurmountable that with a little bit of thought and some creative engineering we could DO something along that line, or something equally simple.
Victor

From: jwsmith42000@...
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 10:55 AM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Where would you hide?

I remember that pervious thread of post and hope you got some use from it.

But what I wanted to address is your contention about the backward slide of
interest in space.
I agree with you and even addressed it those 5 or so years ago.
I am on about 50 space related discussion groups and the traffic on all of
them have been very low or even non existent for far too long.

I do not know what the answer is but someone - somewhere will have to
actually do something more than dream and talk.

John Wayne

In a message dated 8/3/2010 10:49:32 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
janet_baker76@... writes:

Hi, spacesettlers!

I used to participate on this forum four or five years back and enjoyed
the discussions very much. We had some memorable ones! Could I ask for your
input again? Back then I was planning a fiction book, and I still am. (!) I
am at the plotting stage. I want my protanonists to 'run for it' to an
out-of-the-way place that could conceivably be within reach in say, fifty
years, given that in those fifty years we got ourselves at least one functioning
colony and had sustained that level of interest and commitment in many
other space-y areas like asteroid mining and so forth. This place would be
reachable yet somehow, someway not so easily accessible. I would like it to
function the way the farthest-flung households in Scotland or northern England
functioned in the 1700's, say. You could get there with an army but it
would be hard--legal and physical impediments. So those areas tended to
collect rebels.

Envision it for me. Could there be a large asteroid on the 'dark side' of
something or other? Could we have evolved (or devolved, or revolved) to a
system of ownership of asteroids where ownership was based on 'first touch,'
like planting a flag used to be when the continent of American was open
season? That's what I mean by legal impediments to invasion, and the 'dark
side' of something (with the possibilities of disruption of electronic
'touch' as well as visual, from earth, etc.)is what I mean by physical. There
might be people on the list now who could think of other kinds of impediments
to invasion, like the ability to hide in another dimension, etc. etc. but
I'm less interested in that kind.

I've been lurking and wishing the topic well. But--All this time and we're
no closer to real public interest in space than we were back in 2006.
Worse, in fact. Also we seem to have become stupider, in the public forum. We
seem to be devolving. It's hard to accept. But I don't want to get off
track--can you give me a great space hideaway?

I don't really know what I'm talking about, but this is fiction!

Janet, I could easily see 'claiming' asteroids, but it would necessitate something on the order of fairly cheap 'singleships' or some such. And then you might have problems with claim jumpers. As far as 'hiding', you might utilize the jovian system or suchlike where interference from a nearby giant radio source would tend to scramble a lot of communication and sensory systems, Mercurys' neighborhood would be good for that as well.
Victor

From: janet_baker76
Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2010 9:48 AM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Where would you hide?

Hi, spacesettlers!

I used to participate on this forum four or five years back and enjoyed the discussions very much. We had some memorable ones! Could I ask for your input again? Back then I was planning a fiction book, and I still am. (!) I am at the plotting stage. I want my protanonists to 'run for it' to an out-of-the-way place that could conceivably be within reach in say, fifty years, given that in those fifty years we got ourselves at least one functioning colony and had sustained that level of interest and commitment in many other space-y areas like asteroid mining and so forth. This place would be reachable yet somehow, someway not so easily accessible. I would like it to function the way the farthest-flung households in Scotland or northern England functioned in the 1700's, say. You could get there with an army but it would be hard--legal and physical impediments. So those areas tended to collect rebels.

Envision it for me. Could there be a large asteroid on the 'dark side' of something or other? Could we have evolved (or devolved, or revolved) to a system of ownership of asteroids where ownership was based on 'first touch,' like planting a flag used to be when the continent of American was open season? That's what I mean by legal impediments to invasion, and the 'dark side' of something (with the possibilities of disruption of electronic 'touch' as well as visual, from earth, etc.)is what I mean by physical. There might be people on the list now who could think of other kinds of impediments to invasion, like the ability to hide in another dimension, etc. etc. but I'm less interested in that kind.

I've been lurking and wishing the topic well. But--All this time and we're no closer to real public interest in space than we were back in 2006. Worse, in fact. Also we seem to have become stupider, in the public forum. We seem to be devolving. It's hard to accept. But I don't want to get off track--can you give me a great space hideaway?

I don't really know what I'm talking about, but this is fiction!

The WAY is called "collaboration" or "pooling resources for mutual aid and support". It's not going to happen as long as people are convincing themselves that Internet chatting is the answer. I've been working on CELSS for 20+ years, building full scale test beds and living in them. I can hardly find people who know what they are and why we need them, let alone discuss the particulars, the real ecotech that goes into "closing the ecology loop". Nobody is going anywhere for any significant duration without CELSS. Yet, the funding for this research was cut by BushCo BEFORE he said we should go to Mars! Obama has continued the tradition of being stupid. The Tea Party certainly doesn't have the vision. They want to go back to the Leave it to Beaver figment of the imagination reality. Yes, educational standards have sunk to new lows. Sustainable life support is required not only in space but on Earth but all I see around me is people using air conditioners to pump the heat from inside to out and wondering why the outside is getting warmer. Duh ...
- Terry Kok

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Smith" wrote:

Wow thanks Victor. I don't know what you mean by singleships. I was thinking of having my guys escape in something I was calling a pod, a slow cheap unit for housing miners. Is it like that? Would singleship be a better name--more known among spacers?

Also, what would the difference be between hiding in the jovian system, and hiding in Mercury's? Regarding light, energy, view? (hehe)

I won't bore you guys with the kind of economics I'm using, but it's basically private ownership with severe common-good restrictions on profit and monopoly applying--it's really the economics of the middle ages. One of the things about space exploration that interests me myself is its possible opportunity to try different economic systems, and to refine cultures (meaning, concentrate characteristics) rather than diluting them, the way the constant drumbeat of diversity insists. If 'claiming' asteroids isn't too far outside the lines of believability, I'll use that. (Man, you'd have to go back a long long way in Europe to find unclaimed land. That's why America was such a boost to capitalism.)

I recently changed my plot and everything, is why I'm asking these questions now, five years down the road, due to reading about Elizabethan England. They already plotted it for me. Heroines and heroes galore. If I had a planet I'd model it on Merry Old England (pre-Reformation).

Thanks again, Victor, and hello, all, and thanks to all for your answers.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Smith" wrote:

> Hi, spacesettlers!
>
> I used to participate on this forum four or five years back and enjoyed the discussions very much. We had some memorable ones! Could I ask for your input again? Back then I was planning a fiction book, and I still am. (!) I am at the plotting stage. I want my protanonists to 'run for it' to an out-of-the-way place that could conceivably be within reach in say, fifty years, given that in those fifty years we got ourselves at least one functioning colony and had sustained that level of interest and commitment in many other space-y areas like asteroid mining and so forth. This place would be reachable yet somehow, someway not so easily accessible. I would like it to function the way the farthest-flung households in Scotland or northern England functioned in the 1700's, say. You could get there with an army but it would be hard--legal and physical impediments. So those areas tended to collect rebels.
>
> Envision it for me. Could there be a large asteroid on the 'dark side' of something or other? Could we have evolved (or devolved, or revolved) to a system of ownership of asteroids where ownership was based on 'first touch,' like planting a flag used to be when the continent of American was open season? That's what I mean by legal impediments to invasion, and the 'dark side' of something (with the possibilities of disruption of electronic 'touch' as well as visual, from earth, etc.)is what I mean by physical. There might be people on the list now who could think of other kinds of impediments to invasion, like the ability to hide in another dimension, etc. etc. but I'm less interested in that kind.
>
> I've been lurking and wishing the topic well. But--All this time and we're no closer to real public interest in space than we were back in 2006. Worse, in fact. Also we seem to have become stupider, in the public forum. We seem to be devolving. It's hard to accept. But I don't want to get off track--can you give me a great space hideaway?
>
> I don't really know what I'm talking about, but this is fiction!

On space interest, it is sad but what's good is the developments that are occuring. SpaceX is about to be the first private company to put ferry people to and from ISS, with launches that are far lower then the competition. Bigelow has two inflateable prototype habitats in orbit now 1/3 and 1/2 size, and is planning on putting up the full sized one in years not decades. With space equal to what ISS currently has. Space Adventures currently contracts with Russia for tourists to ISS, they currently are taking advanced booking for circumlunar trips. I'm hoping the combination of all this will cause a breakthrough and expansion in space for human activity.

On hiding, lava tubes on the far side of the moon, on Mars or Mercury are options. Hiding your heat, emissions and activities, of course. Also grabbing a good sized asteroid and pushing your way into a highly elliptical orbit, in other words outside the plane of the rest of the solar system where no one would really be looking. (Hide your emissions just to be safe.)

Brooks

> JW, yeah, my frustration index has been climbing apace with the seeming disinterest in what MUST be our nearly sole source of salvation on this planet, namely getting off it! I simply don't know what to do about it. If I had money, I'd be tempted to build a kevlar wrapped styrofoam cylinder, strap on a couple of solid fuel boosters, float it to the top of the atmosphere with an array of super-pressure helium ballons and put my own habitat into orbit. Sadly, however, you don't do something like that on SS disability income. I DON'T know why SOMEONE with as much frustration as me and a whole lot more money hasn't done just that...there's simply GOT to be a way. The obstacle just aren't THAT insurmountable that with a little bit of thought and some creative engineering we could DO something along that line, or something equally simple.
> Victor

I spend half my time thinking of space and ideas to get us going, and the other half on 'what to actually do'. The recent idea I had was getting ISS to start collecting meteors for processing. Similar to this, except without the solar sail. http://alglobus.net/NASAwork/papers/AsterAnts/paper.html And I've thought of trying to influence the National Space Society to make it a priority for them. (Since I don't even really know where to start if I wanted to influence NASA directly.) If you have any ideas let it out!
Brooks

Terry,

May I suggest that you crack open a science primer and read it cover to
cover before you start ranting. Your statement that the reason the
earth is warming is because people are using air conditioners is so bad
it isn't even wrong! If your understanding and beliefs about CELSS are
as misinformed and factually incorrect as your misunderstandings about
thermodynamics and Earth's climate, I will have to make sure I remember
your name so I NEVER depend on one of your products for life support.

Jonathan

On 08/04/2010 09:41 AM, biostar_a wrote:
> The WAY is called "collaboration" or "pooling resources for mutual aid and support". It's not going to happen as long as people are convincing themselves that Internet chatting is the answer. I've been working on CELSS for 20+ years, building full scale test beds and living in them. I can hardly find people who know what they are and why we need them, let alone discuss the particulars, the real ecotech that goes into "closing the ecology loop". Nobody is going anywhere for any significant duration without CELSS. Yet, the funding for this research was cut by BushCo BEFORE he said we should go to Mars! Obama has continued the tradition of being stupid. The Tea Party certainly doesn't have the vision. They want to go back to the Leave it to Beaver figment of the imagination reality. Yes, educational standards have sunk to new lows. Sustainable life support is required not only in space but on Earth but all I see around me is people using air conditioners to pump the heat from
inside to out and wondering why the outside is getting warmer. Duh ...

Janet, a 'singleship' is a term used by author Larry Niven in his "Known Space" books. It refers to a small, one man (thence singleship) spacecraft, usually fusion powered, that was utilized primarily by 'Belters' for prospecting and travel between the many small worlds of the asteroid belt. Though he never specifically mentioned the cost of a singleship, one gets the impression, since many individuals owned them, that they were the equivalent to a car utilized for running around, to and fro-ing to work, etc. He also utilized larger 2 and 3 man ships, tugs, an array of military craft and suchlike for system travel. For interstellar travel the spacecraft tended to increase in size as per use of Bussard ram jets with electromagnetic interstellar hydrogen scoops. Later in the series, Niven introduces a number of alien species, and with them, the General Products hull, and more advanced engines such as hyperspace, etc.

As to your environs, The moons of Jupiter and Saturn encompass as many differing environments as there are worlds. Both planetary systems offer the possibility of plentiful fuels, depending on what you are envisioning as your fuel type. There is atmospheric skimming of hydrogen from the planets themselves, or splitting H2O into component parts on several of the moons. This also offers life support gasses. Down side: the sun is a long way off, and offers much less energy in the short run than in Earth orbit, though, one would surmise that bigger arrays would still yield ample energy for an installation (always assuming that you NEED it and don't have access to a nice fusion reactor for your base). As far as hiding, another good place that would possibly attract rebels would be the Oort Cloud, a vast spere of cometary masses, possible planets, etc. that extends outward from the edge of our own solar system until it encounters the Clouds of the nearest stars. Plusses are plentiful resources, negatives, once again power limitations and transit and communication times. Mercury, in my opinion, would be a hidey-hole of last resort. You'd need to dig in subsurface on the dark side and import all essentials. Proximity to the sun would hide electromagnetic emanations from your base, but it would hide them from YOUR side as well. Additionally, you'd need a good ship to get anywhere from Mercury as you have to climb out of the deepest gravity well in the system, all the while shielding from sheeting radiation. It would be extremely limiting as a rebel HQ.

One of the facets of Nivens' Belter civilization was his use of 'bubble worlds' as a method for sustaining Belters health in a lifestyle largely dominated by microgravity. These were rotating shells 'blown up' from nickel-iron asteroids and utilized for both farming, raising children in a gravity environment and providing for periodic opportunities for prospectors, etc. to spend extended periods in gravity to maintain musculo-skeletal tone so that, if necessary, they can function on a planetary surface. These were fashioned by drilling into the center of a large, Nickel-Iron asteroid, pumping in a quantity of water, sealing the shaft, adding a spin to the body and then bathing the entire asteroid in either focused sunlight from huge parabolic mirrors or by multiple laser beams. As the asteroid spins, it is heated evenly until it reaches the point that the water at its' center begins to boil. At this point, the pressure of the expanding steam inside the asteroid caused the entire mass to expand evenly into a gigantic soap bubble, which is then allowed to cool, tunneled into, filled with imported soil, seeded and fitted with a light source and henceforth provides a vast amount of livable, terraformable interior habitat that can be utilized as needed. I'm assuming that such a habitat could be manufactured in the belt where metal asteroids are common and plenty of energy available, and then tugged out to wherever it's needed, be it as an artificial satellite of one of the outer worlds or the Oort Cloud if the Belt were to 'exposed'.

Hope any of that helps. If you're talking 'slow' (your 'pods') you are probably talking some form of ion powered engines (unless you're planning to utilize a sail. You might look under the FILES section of the group pages under "Crookedman Files" where I've got a folder covering a lot of pretty much currently doable propulsion systems (though I haven't included anything on solar sails).

Good luck,
Victor

From: janet_baker76
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:03 AM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Where would you hide?

Wow thanks Victor. I don't know what you mean by singleships. I was thinking of having my guys escape in something I was calling a pod, a slow cheap unit for housing miners. Is it like that? Would singleship be a better name--more known among spacers?

Also, what would the difference be between hiding in the jovian system, and hiding in Mercury's? Regarding light, energy, view? (hehe)

I won't bore you guys with the kind of economics I'm using, but it's basically private ownership with severe common-good restrictions on profit and monopoly applying--it's really the economics of the middle ages. One of the things about space exploration that interests me myself is its possible opportunity to try different economic systems, and to refine cultures (meaning, concentrate characteristics) rather than diluting them, the way the constant drumbeat of diversity insists. If 'claiming' asteroids isn't too far outside the lines of believability, I'll use that. (Man, you'd have to go back a long long way in Europe to find unclaimed land. That's why America was such a boost to capitalism.)

I recently changed my plot and everything, is why I'm asking these questions now, five years down the road, due to reading about Elizabethan England. They already plotted it for me. Heroines and heroes galore. If I had a planet I'd model it on Merry Old England (pre-Reformation).

Thanks again, Victor, and hello, all, and thanks to all for your answers.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Smith" wrote:

Hi Janet,

Welcome back, glad to hear you're still writing.

I was remembering the characteristics of the hideout of a historical pirate, Jean Lafitte. His camp at Barataria, near New Orleans, could be reached by ship only by sailing up the right channel among a dozen that wound through the swamps of south Louisiana. The trip involved many twists and turns, required thorough knowledge of underwater obstacles, and for the wind-powered ships of the era took a lot of time. All of which discouraged the curious and gave Lafitte plenty of warning of someone coming up, giving him time to scout the vessel and set an ambush or raise an alarm if needed. In case he did get surprised from the sea, he and his folks could go overland through the swamps and melt into New Orleans, a route that could be traveled in a day given a good mount, but was as twisted and as hard to navigate for the uninitiated as was the approach by water from the Gulf. And if by chance both those options were cut off, Lafitte was on good terms with many of the Cajun families who hunted and fished the swamplands in the region, and could bolt off through the swamps in a shallow draft boat with every expectation of aid, a friendly escort, and discretion from his neighbors. The guy was so formidable that both the British and Americans approached him for an alliance in the run-up to the Battle of New Orleans in 1815.

I'm not sure how to translate all that into solar system terms, but here are a couple of ideas. For aerospace engineers, delta v, or the need to burn the engines to speed up, slow down or change direction, is costly in fuel and weight and therefore is something to be avoided. So a 21st Century Lafitte would want to be someplace that took a lot of delta v to reach, to keep out the curious. Something way far out, like the Oort Cloud, or far out of the plane that most of the planets orbit in, are two possibilities. Another is taking up residence in a densely-populated asteroid field that required a lot of changes of course to navigate, slowing down the interloper so that he could be examined and reacted to. Like Lafitte he'd want a back door to sneak out of, not sure how to arrange that. And he'd want some locals that could be tempted or befriended into cooperating, folks far enough away from civilized life that they don't care about appearances so much, and who are somewhat in synch with his rebellious streak. Unconventional folks, like wildcat miners, doctrinaire terraformers who have turned their back on human society in pursuit of their far-off goal, or smugglers with plenty of reason to be hostile to the authorities.

To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
From: janet_baker76@...
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 15:03:10 +0000
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Where would you hide?

Wow thanks Victor. I don't know what you mean by singleships. I was thinking of having my guys escape in something I was calling a pod, a slow cheap unit for housing miners. Is it like that? Would singleship be a better name--more known among spacers?

Also, what would the difference be between hiding in the jovian system, and hiding in Mercury's? Regarding light, energy, view? (hehe)

I won't bore you guys with the kind of economics I'm using, but it's basically private ownership with severe common-good restrictions on profit and monopoly applying--it's really the economics of the middle ages. One of the things about space exploration that interests me myself is its possible opportunity to try different economic systems, and to refine cultures (meaning, concentrate characteristics) rather than diluting them, the way the constant drumbeat of diversity insists. If 'claiming' asteroids isn't too far outside the lines of believability, I'll use that. (Man, you'd have to go back a long long way in Europe to find unclaimed land. That's why America was such a boost to capitalism.)

I recently changed my plot and everything, is why I'm asking these questions now, five years down the road, due to reading about Elizabethan England. They already plotted it for me. Heroines and heroes galore. If I had a planet I'd model it on Merry Old England (pre-Reformation).

Thanks again, Victor, and hello, all, and thanks to all for your answers.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Smith" wrote:

Brad! So good to hear from you! And so useful! Yes, I need a back door. Using Lafitte's hide out is genius. I'm using also the strategy of certain families in Elizabethan England during the reformation - -they ran to the badlands. (Brad, I think we're going to have to run for it. Space is the new badlands. It's possible this will be more motivating for people as certain political developments in the world mature.)

I have been writing ever since I last heard from you (when your boss was forcing you to participate in networking!). But not fiction. I was stuck in that Alpha centauri plot. I guess it took me four years to understand the world in a different way.

I'm so glad to hear from you. I hope everything is great and nobody is bothering you and maybe I hope you aren't traveling so much.

Jan Baker

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Brad Walsh wrote:

Victor, I can't thank you enough. I know I should have read more science fiction and be familiar with Larry Niven. I'll make up for that in the future. Meanwhile, you've given me such a great crash course - - succinct, pointed. Thank you!

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Smith" wrote:

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Jonathan Lee wrote:
>
> Terry,
>
> May I suggest that you crack open a science primer and read it cover to
> cover before you start ranting. Your statement that the reason the
> earth is warming is because people are using air conditioners is so bad
> it isn't even wrong!

You really missed the point Jonathan. Not only do those air conditioners pump heat from inside to out, they do so by being powered for a variety of sources. I'm in Indiana where the primary electrical source is coal burning and the secondary source is natural gas burning. Yes, the secondary source was fired up the last few days (we can hear it across the valley) due to the heavy load put on the grid via the use of those air conditioners.

If your understanding and beliefs about CELSS are
> as misinformed and factually incorrect as your misunderstandings about
> thermodynamics and Earth's climate, I will have to make sure I remember
> your name so I NEVER depend on one of your products for life support.

Oh Jon, that's just plain crap. I have more hours under this belt working with CELSS hands-on than almost and other researcher other than Gittelson (Russia). I've presented papers at the life support conferences, lectured (by invitation) at NSCORT, Purdue, know most of the core researchers, had my last testbed featured on PBS, etc. etc. Do I need to provide you with my resume'? Here is a bit of it:

partial lecture experience:
NASA Specialized Center of Research and Training (NSCORT) - Department of Horticulture, Purdue University, Indiana
1996 Midwest Space Development Conference - Chicago, Illinois
1998 International Space Development Conference - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
2000 Chicon - World Science Fiction Convention, Chicago, IL
2001 Inconjunction (sci-fi con), Indianapolis, IN
Rose-Hullman School of Engineering - Terre Haute, Indiana
Ball State University - Muncie, Indiana
University of Indiana - Terre Haute, Indiana
Indiana University - Bloomington, Indiana
Bloomington High School North - Bloomington, Indiana
Bloomington High School South - Bloomington, Indiana
Harmony School - Bloomington, Indiana

scientific papers presented:
1992 International Conference on Life Support and Biospherics - University of Alabama in Huntsville - topic: Building a Full Scale Biospheric Community: Ecology, Permaculture, and the Biospheric Lifestyle
1994 Second International Conference on Life Support and Biospherics - University of Alabama in Huntsville - topic: Home Scale Bioregenerative Life Support
1998 Third International Conference on Life Support and Biosphere Science - Orlando, Florida - topic: Biostar-A: a first year report - Living with a home scale biological life support system
2000 2nd conference of the Mars Society, Toronto, Canada - topic: Green CELSS Report - state of the art CELSS research and development

Hi, everyone.

Still busy on my own novel. My mother's friends have been reading it and have suggested I rewrite it a bit. At the same time one of mom's bithes gave birth to puppies and I am caring for the surviving pair.

This is the first time I have had any free time in a long time.

1. My suggestion is always if you want to hide do so in a crowd in plain sight. I suppose on the future high frontier it will be a lot like Deadwood in some parts, especially mining colonies. In a group of dirty strangers a new face will not be noticed.

2. I found one Space Island sight advocating hollowing out asteroids and using them to construct colonies. I suppose depending on material and ability to spin them that would be a very good idea. In which case all rules for space island habitats apply. Prety much what would be in a Torus or Bernal Sphere would be what would apply.

>I think we're going to have to run for it. Space is the new badlands. It's possible this will be more motivating for people as certain political developments in the world mature.
Ah politics. But we should do that offline, these guys don't want to hash that out on spacesettlers.

I think the real tipping point is going to be when somebody starts doing robotic resource mining, gathering raw materials (from the moon, near-earth asteroids, Mars, almost doesn't matter where) remotely and refining them into something we can then assemble and live in on-orbit. Launch costs being what they are, manned spaceflight will be the province of governments and the super-rich until the day when we don't have to bring up everything that we'll need to live on. Once you can hop a Soyuz, bringing nothing but a change of underwear, up to a robotically-assembled orbital hab with all necessities already in place, we'll begin to migrate up there en masse. But hauling all the water, oxygen, steel and soil we'll need up with us is an all-but insurmountable barrier.

>I have been writing ever since I last heard from you. I was stuck in that Alpha centauri plot. I guess it took me four years to understand the world in a different way.

I'm glad you cleared that up, I couldn't figure out who on the Regina Coeli would need to hide out from the authorities.

From: brooksn
"On hiding, lava tubes on the far side of the moon, on Mars or Mercury are
options. Hiding your heat, emissions and activities, of course. Also grabbing a
good sized asteroid and pushing your way into a highly elliptical orbit, in
other words outside the plane of the rest of the solar system where no one would
really be looking. (Hide your emissions just to be safe.)"

How about reducing a ship's energy reflectance? No so much a cloaking device as
a super efficient type of solar cell technology that observes almost all light
(visible, infrared and ultraviolet). That would make a ship blacker that black,
so to speak. As long as no one observes your small craft travel in front of a
bright source, it would be harder to detect.

Who on the Regina Coeli, a Catholic spaceship, would need need to hide from the authorities? The Catholics.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Brad Walsh wrote:

> If your understanding and beliefs about CELSS are
> > as misinformed and factually incorrect as your misunderstandings about
> > thermodynamics and Earth's climate, I will have to make sure I remember
> > your name so I NEVER depend on one of your products for life support.
>
> Oh Jon, that's just plain crap. I have more hours under this belt working with CELSS hands-on than almost and other researcher other than Gittelson (Russia). I've presented papers at the life support conferences, lectured (by invitation) at NSCORT, Purdue, know most of the core researchers, had my last testbed featured on PBS, etc. etc. Do I need to provide you with my resume'? Here is a bit of it:
>
> partial lecture experience:
> NASA Specialized Center of Research and Training (NSCORT) - Department of Horticulture, Purdue University, Indiana
> 1996 Midwest Space Development Conference - Chicago, Illinois
> 1998 International Space Development Conference - Milwaukee, Wisconsin
> 2000 Chicon - World Science Fiction Convention, Chicago, IL
> 2001 Inconjunction (sci-fi con), Indianapolis, IN
> Rose-Hullman School of Engineering - Terre Haute, Indiana
> Ball State University - Muncie, Indiana
> University of Indiana - Terre Haute, Indiana
> Indiana University - Bloomington, Indiana
> Bloomington High School North - Bloomington, Indiana
> Bloomington High School South - Bloomington, Indiana
> Harmony School - Bloomington, Indiana
>
> scientific papers presented:
> 1992 International Conference on Life Support and Biospherics - University of Alabama in Huntsville - topic: Building a Full Scale Biospheric Community: Ecology, Permaculture, and the Biospheric Lifestyle
> 1994 Second International Conference on Life Support and Biospherics - University of Alabama in Huntsville - topic: Home Scale Bioregenerative Life Support
> 1998 Third International Conference on Life Support and Biosphere Science - Orlando, Florida - topic: Biostar-A: a first year report - Living with a home scale biological life support system
> 2000 2nd conference of the Mars Society, Toronto, Canada - topic: Green CELSS Report - state of the art CELSS research and development

Thank you for the resume, I am in your other yahoo group and it is good to finally get some understanding of what level you are at in all this. Do you have a website and list of projects being worked on?
Brooks

Another thread was talking about terraforming Mars.
It occurs to me that a Mars in the process of being
terraformed might make a good hiding place.

It takes a lot of delta-V to get to and from the
surface, and anybody terraforming Mars in a High
Frontier age will be a fierce and independent bunch
of people. The artificial magnetic field blocks
communications except very near the poles, which is
fine with the Martians, because they seldom want to
talk to the rest of the System anyway. Legal obstacles
could be that Mars in a nation in its own right, and
they don't cotton to any foreign government nosing
around their planet. Individuals, though, well...

The Martians are busy terraforming, and can't really
spare the manpower to hunt down any scoundrel who's dumb
enough to go hiding out on a planet that regularly gets
hit with iceteroids. Granted, any such hider who causes
trouble for Mars will find himself the target of a
manhunt which is, to be frank, disproportionate in
resources utilized, but if you don't bother the Martians
(and provide a few kick-backs in the right place) the
Martians won't bother you. Of course, they also won't
give a damn if your little hide-out gets hit by a chunk
of ice the size of Mount Rushmore, either, but oh well.

If your rebels/pirates/mafioso/whatever have fusion ships,
then Mars-becoming-terraformed might be the best hide-out
in the Solar System.

I like the scenario. Where will we get the fierce and independent people from? We know more about an Oort Cloud than about graduating those!

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "sailor.barsoom" wrote:

I just harvested this idea. The 'not so much a cloaking device' one. Th-aanks!!

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Matt Gallimore wrote:

I know my comment is late in coming, but I figure I'd throw my two cents in on this.

The jovian system is a good place to muck about, lots of moons and dust rings to hid out in. Gives you three other planets to use as well. Saturn, Uranus and Neptune, them being apart of the Jovian system. The asteroid belt is another good place to hid your illegal activities. As the other have made good points on this. The outer solar system is the best place to conduct this due to as you get closer to sol, you run into such issues as radiation. Our sun is a killer if you don't have a planet with a good magnetosphere around it.

I suppose this really all depends on how far in the future you plan to make this, 50, 100, a 1000s? Do things far enough forward it is not a hard idea to buy if they have force-fields to protect their ships, and engines that are all electric with phenomenal thrust, thus meaning with some kind of nuclear power supply one has years of fuel to burn making the worry over the delta v less important.

Other good hid outs would be protoplanets on the far fringes of the solar system. Ceres, Pallas, and Juno...