I am a new group member and my emphasis is on the human problems of survival rather than the technological aspects (as important as they are). I have science and IT training, and experience in electronics, but in all my experiences and projects I keep running into this one: the human side of the problem. Whether it involves the design of a piece of equipment, a website experience (such as this one), a structure to live or work in, a whole city, or a whole ecological system, human considerations are as important to the final workability of the design as are the other technologies involved.

The most workable paradigm that I have seen used in the field of human thought and behavior is the engineering paradigm. In this paradigm, you develop and implement technologies that could solve the problem, then find ways to test their effectiveness. You pick the technology that is the most "efficient" per your best understanding of how that can be measured.

Efficiency implies both workability and low waste. These are prime criteria for the selection of any technology.

Most currently-popular human "technologies" lack workability, so this has been a huge barrier to progress in this area. This area is also special because it is impossible to totally separate the observer from the phenomena being observed, as we try to in traditional science.

I won't belabor these points in this opening post. But here are a few challenges that lie at various levels of this problem:

1) On this site you have to use a search tool to find messages of interest, or else scroll through all messages, guessing which topics might be appropriate to your interests. Why can't some sort of hierarchical search aid be implemented to help someone zero in on the relevant messages faster?

2) In society we have a crime problem. What are you going to do with a space colonist if he starts to turn criminal(refuses to contribute, goes crazy, kills someone)? Is there a possibility of attempted attacks from rival space groups, and if so, how would this be handled?

I made a group specifically aimed at these considerations called survive-mankind, but I would actually prefer it if a lot of this discussion occurs within the context of this existing group.

Hi,

I share your interests in the human aspects of Space Colonisation. For me it is both the desire for space colonization as well as being in process of writing a novel and getting it published, I want to visualize what life will be like up there when things go forward. (I am already rewriting it after the first reading).

For your first interest, you will have to take that up with management here while for the second, I guess it depends on who runs the show. For the initial phase of colonization, I expect we will be the New Frontier where much like the old west the Bullwhip and Hemp necktie were the best methods for dealing with people who will not behave themselves. Personally, I expect most criminals will simply be locked up in short term and eventually sent back to earth and trial and/or prison if 'unenlightened' locals simply don't shove the offending vermin in question out some air lock first for which they will be denounced as 'bigots' and such. Eventually, as more space islands are built, some islands will have prisons and places for executions to be carried out. It really depends on who runs the governments and whose policies are prevailing.

It will be interesting to see what kind of social services Space Island governments might be offering or compelled by earth governments to provide. Will they be stuck with a 'professional' welfare class that refuses to work? Will they refuse to provide welfare benefits? Will they be a great new melting pot or something else? What kind of schools will they have? Perhaps with computors and the internet they will have a highly advanced form of home schooling. Will they have boy scouts and girl scouts or a simgle type of 'scouts' or something else? What kind of pets will they have? Will colonists be allowed to have pets? What will their sports be like? What will their recreations be? Will we be like Singapore or Chicago or Rio?

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "l_ed_cox" wrote:
>
> I am a new group member and my emphasis is on the human problems of survival rather than the technological aspects (as important as they are). I have science and IT training, and experience in electronics, but in all my experiences and projects I keep running into this one: the human side of the problem. Whether it involves the design of a piece of equipment, a website experience (such as this one), a structure to live or work in, a whole city, or a whole ecological system, human considerations are as important to the final workability of the design as are the other technologies involved.
>
> The most workable paradigm that I have seen used in the field of human thought and behavior is the engineering paradigm. In this paradigm, you develop and implement technologies that could solve the problem, then find ways to test their effectiveness. You pick the technology that is the most "efficient" per your best understanding of how that can be measured.
>
> Efficiency implies both workability and low waste. These are prime criteria for the selection of any technology.
>
> Most currently-popular human "technologies" lack workability, so this has been a huge barrier to progress in this area. This area is also special because it is impossible to totally separate the observer from the phenomena being observed, as we try to in traditional science.
>
> I won't belabor these points in this opening post. But here are a few challenges that lie at various levels of this problem:
>
> 1) On this site you have to use a search tool to find messages of interest, or else scroll through all messages, guessing which topics might be appropriate to your interests. Why can't some sort of hierarchical search aid be implemented to help someone zero in on the relevant messages faster?
>
> 2) In society we have a crime problem. What are you going to do with a space colonist if he starts to turn criminal(refuses to contribute, goes crazy, kills someone)? Is there a possibility of attempted attacks from rival space groups, and if so, how would this be handled?
>
> I made a group specifically aimed at these considerations called survive-mankind, but I would actually prefer it if a lot of this discussion occurs within the context of this existing group.
>
Answer to question one: talk to yahoo about that, it's their site...

Answer to question two: You do the same thing we do here on earth, Deal with it the best you can, and work and hope for the best. This question is the same old question mankind has been asking of its societies. Being that there is no perfect societal model that works in the real world all we can do is mitigate those same old societal issues that have plagued mankind since he/she built its first civilization.
As far as war, ie rival groups fighting over resources or how they choose to butter their toast is something humans among other animals tend to do, and again can only be mitigated.
Maybe someday we will evolve past these issues, but one must consider it is having these issues that makes us strive for better and once achieved could be what leads us to stagnation and extinction, in other words you have to take the good with the bad...

> 1) On this site you have to use a search tool to find messages of interest, or else scroll through all messages, guessing which topics might be appropriate to your interests. Why can't some sort of hierarchical search aid be implemented to help someone zero in on the relevant messages faster?

Yahoo establishes the search engine for this group, if you put in any word of interest when searching for messages it'll pull up any message with that word in it.

> 2) In society we have a crime problem. What are you going to do with a space colonist if he starts to turn criminal(refuses to contribute, goes crazy, kills someone)? Is there a possibility of attempted attacks from rival space groups, and if so, how would this be handled?

Well the problem of crime in space colonies would likely be far down the line in a colonies development, probably a 50 plus community, which is decades away. But jumping to that time, most likely there are two scenarios. First with communities small and tightly controlled, 50 to 150 members, made up of government entities and private colonies. The rogue element would need to be restrained, assessed for re entering the group or sent home. On a distant colony this would prove expensive and difficult.

On larger colonies, 100's of members and up, prison, a mental facility, etc. would seem to be needed to deal with members of the colony that had criminal behavior or mental issues that threatened others.

Brooks

The scenario I have been considering to account for the populations used for the first colonization is the same as the early US--religious refugees and criminals.

Do you think people will go willingly? Would it take a terribly ruined Earth to platform that?

I can envision an ad: Buy Colony: the Elements are Overrated.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Terrierkeeper" wrote:

I have considered man's expansion into space as a natural thing. In Movile Suit Gundam the premise is Earth governments deport or expel half the planet's population, much as the Soviets filled up Siberia, to deal with earth over population.

Since my ancestors on my mother's side on her mother's side crossed the Atlantic during the mid sixteen hundreds and on both her mother's and her father's crossed the great plains with the wagon trains and early trains to settle the west coast to seek opportunity and new lives, I expect many people will move into space to the colonies L4 and L5 for similar reasons.

I think there will always be an exploratory nature to some people. Many have the inclination to homestead a place in the wilderness. Some space enthusiasts will always dream, as we do here, of living off planet. And yes religious/political minorities will likely be driven to leave as well.

A study showed rougly 10% of the US population would spend a year's salary to visit space, I can only imagine a smaller number 1 to 0.1%, which is 3 million to 300,000, would be willing to live in space.

Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "janet_baker76" wrote:

The scenario will vary, like any colonist back in colonial times they all had their own reason for leaving, and it wasn't that Europe was post Apocalyptic and the human race needed else where to go, it was just over crowded and the economy though doing well wasn't at it's best. Kind of like things are now here in the U.S. and Europe.

I would wager good money that people would go in droves to a space colony right now if it held any promise of holding a better future. But mostly the reason will be political, like it or not, believe it right or wrong, a lot of people don't like a big government micromanaging their lives. This being the major reason for the puritans coming to America and building colonies. A lot of them had wealth, or at least some good standing in England, no real reason to leave other then the political/religious.

How the colonies sold themselves back then was to state the obvious, homestead land, untapped resources, and most of all no one telling you what to do(at least for the most part); how to live your life, what you can eat or smoke..heh

There is also something to say about just being in a new land or in this case out in space making history. That in and of itself will be a draw for the adventuring type. It would be my biggest reason for going.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "janet_baker76" wrote:

Well that's how it tends to start, with a small trickle. Their surely wont start out as a mass exodus as there wasn't when the new world (America) was found, took a few hundred years for it to become appealing.
Now given our day and age with faster technological development one could safely venture that our move into space would transpire on a shorter time line. My simple point here is that the Earth doesn't need to be dead for people to want to leave, and the only reason the percentage would be small at this point is simple there's nothing out there.
Most people want civilization around them, but a few are willing to forgo it and build their own when they get there. Once done the trickle will turn to a flood. Oh and there is the other obvious aspect. Your average person most likely doesn't know how possible something like a space colony "could" be, so they'll want to see one survive and work for a few years before going any where. No one wants to be apart of the next Roanoke colony and suffer its fate.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "brooksn" wrote:

--- In spacesettlers, "Terrierkeeper" wrote:

> What will their sports be like?

Must... resist... but why?
group of my own dedicated to this subject.

> What will their recreations be?

Sex drugs and rock n' roll? But yeah, other than
the new sports, what will people do for fun that's
different than what they do for fun on Earth?

> Will we be like Singapore or Chicago or Rio?

Honolulu? The Panama Canal Zone? New Orleans?