OrbHab>Spacesettlers

Re: Parabolic Steam Generators versus PV
# 13143 bydonray40@... on July 17, 2013, 7:01 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

I have been researching the processing of regolith for pv grade silicon. There are going to be some challenges. I think extracting aluminium from the regolith where Apollo 16 landed and make trough reflectors horizontal or vertical to generate steam for power plants may be an economical option. I am thinking terms of lunar surface installations. It may be possible to beam to earth from the moon's surface. An equatorial grid that could supply continuosly would foot the bill pretty well and the subject of solar wind and atmospheric drag would be a mute point.
Regards
Don

# 13144 bybhn1700@... on July 18, 2013, 1:33 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

Converting regolith to Aluminum troughs would seem to be easier than PV production. But unless placed at the poles, half the month will be in darkness. Also how do you plan to beam the energy to Earth.
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Doc" wrote:

# 13145 bymikecombs@... on July 18, 2013, 1:09 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

> But unless placed at the poles, half the month will be in darkness.
> Also how do you plan to beam the energy to Earth.

Although I agree with you that building solar power plants in any place which is dark half the time is less than optimal, David Criswell has done a lot of study on power beaming via microwave from lunar surface to Earth. I also heard out of someone at SSI who said that such power beaming ought to not present any insuperable challenges, despite the fact that the beaming distance would be around 10x greater than from GEO.

Regards,
Mike Combs

# 13146 bybhn1700@... on July 18, 2013, 2:15 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

So it might be in places other then the poles, seems quite wasteful. Microwaves from the moon to Earth, I'm wondering how, a series of relay stations in orbit? My understanding is you need to be steady with the ground for the microwave transmission and reception to work. GEO, L1 from the moon, etc. but from the moon to the Earth you are eventually going to have a moving target, wonder how they solved that.
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

# 13147 bymikecombs@... on July 18, 2013, 2:34 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

From: brooksn

> Microwaves from the moon to Earth, I'm wondering how, a series of relay stations in orbit?

Yeah, one reason why I like Crisewell's proposals less than those of Glaser/O'Neill is that Crisewell's become a Rube Goldberg machine of orbiting microwave reflectors and sometimes orbiting light reflectors as well. He makes the point (and it must be granted) that putting a microwave reflector in orbit is easier than putting up a PV solar array, but the Glaser design has fewer components and more straightforward beaming.
> My understanding is you need to be steady with the ground for the microwave transmission and reception to work.
> GEO, L1 from the moon, etc. but from the moon to the Earth you are eventually going to have a moving target,
> wonder how they solved that.

No, actually a moving target is no problem as long as you're using phased array steering and a pilot beam at the target.

Regards,
Mike Combs

# 13148 bybhn1700@... on July 18, 2013, 7:21 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

What is phased array steering and a pilot beam? From a glance online it looks like maybe the antenna can change what it's transmitting based on the distance to the rectenna at the time, is that right? It seems the phased array steering and pilot beam are used for the GEO SBSP, but they would be able to handle the widely varying distances during lunar/Earth rotation?
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

# 13149 bymikecombs@... on July 18, 2013, 7:34 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

Yes, the GEO SPS is what I know phased array steering from. You seem to have a concern about distance, but this is primarily about fine steering. Gross steering would be pointing the antenna emitter at the direction of the Earth, and then phased array beam steering would provide the fine steering needed to hit the rectenna. I don't think anything in this process is particularly sensitive to distance (other than that the beam is a bit wider at greater distances).

Regards,
Mike Combs

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brooksn
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 2:22 PM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Parabolic Steam Generators versus PV

What is phased array steering and a pilot beam? From a glance online it looks like maybe the antenna can change what it's transmitting based on the distance to the rectenna at the time, is that right? It seems the phased array steering and pilot beam are used for the GEO SBSP, but they would be able to handle the widely varying distances during lunar/Earth rotation?
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

# 13150 bydonray40@... on July 18, 2013, 9:10 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

I really have not done that much research on power sats. My main
interest has been settling and creating infrastructure on the moon. I
just recall reading an article from NSS or somewhere that sugested that
beaming could be done, maybe laser or maser.
Don

# 13151 bybhn1700@... on July 19, 2013, 1:16 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

I probably didn't explain very well what I mean. SPBS is in GSO at an essentially constant place above the surface and fine steering is done to keep it at an optimum position for the rectenna.

If you beam from the moon, I assume from one of the poles, you aim it toward the Earth. Then at some point you have have to reflect it to the surface, more than once when you reflect to the opposite side of the Earth from where the moon is. But essentially the Earth is rotating every 24 hours under the moon so you have to constantly adjust the distance that you are 'shooting' at the reflectors.

I know the microwaves and reflected sunlight are variable based on distance so if lasers are used and are less sensitive that makes more sense to me.
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

# 13152 bymikecombs@... on July 22, 2013, 2:37 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

I recommend researching SPS, because if it were pursued seriously (i.e. at a level to make a significant dent in global needs) then the most economical source of raw materials would be the moon. I dont know if SPS would guarantee lunar settlement, but it would most certainly lead to lunar infrastructure emplacement and economic development, which I would say is a necessary precondition.

Ive noticed people do tend to shift to the much shorter wavelengths of IR or visible-wavelength lasers when talking about beaming power over interplanetary distances. But for the distance between the Earth and the moon, I think phased-array microwaves are still fine (Criswell certainly thinks so). One big advantage of microwaves is that the conversion to electricity is surprisingly efficient.

Regards,
Mike Combs

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of don
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 4:11 PM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Parabolic Steam Generators versus PV

I really have not done that much research on power sats. My main
interest has been settling and creating infrastructure on the moon. I
just recall reading an article from NSS or somewhere that sugested that
beaming could be done, maybe laser or maser.
Don

# 13153 bymikecombs@... on July 22, 2013, 2:38 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

I think the best thing I could recommend is to research the name David Criswell. He's the one who's done the most work on power beaming from the moon, and insists it could be done economically.

Regards,
Mike Combs

From: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brooksn
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 8:16 AM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Parabolic Steam Generators versus PV

I probably didn't explain very well what I mean. SPBS is in GSO at an essentially constant place above the surface and fine steering is done to keep it at an optimum position for the rectenna.

If you beam from the moon, I assume from one of the poles, you aim it toward the Earth. Then at some point you have have to reflect it to the surface, more than once when you reflect to the opposite side of the Earth from where the moon is. But essentially the Earth is rotating every 24 hours under the moon so you have to constantly adjust the distance that you are 'shooting' at the reflectors.

I know the microwaves and reflected sunlight are variable based on distance so if lasers are used and are less sensitive that makes more sense to me.
Brooks

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

# 13154 bysailorbarsoom@... on July 23, 2013, 4:28 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03

--- In spacesettlers, "Combs, Mike" wrote:

> I think the best thing I could recommend is to research the
> name David Criswell. He's the one who's done the most work
> on power beaming from the moon, and insists it could be done
> economically.
>
> Regards,
> Mike Combs

Wouldn't the power lines get tangled?

Oh, wait...