*1. Does humanity have a future beyond Earth?*
I think its a dangerous delusion to envisage mass emigration from Earth.
Theres nowhere else in the solar system thats as comfortable as even the
top of Everest or the South Pole. We must address the worlds problems
here. Nevertheless, Id guess that by the next century, there will be
groups of privately funded adventurers living on Mars and thereafter
perhaps elsewhere in the solar system. We should surely wish these pioneer
settlers good luck in using all the cyborg techniques and biotech to adapt
to alien environments. Within a few centuries they will have become a new
species: the posthuman era will have begun. Travel beyond the solar system
is an enterprise for posthumansorganic or inorganic.
*Martin Rees, British cosmologist and astrophysicist*
colonize. If landing robots qualifies, then weve already done it. If it
means sending microbes from Earth and having them persist and maybe grow,
then, unfortunately, its not unlikely that weve done that as
wellpossibly on Mars with the Phoenix spacecraft and almost certainly
inside the Curiosity rover, which carries a heat source and was not fully
baked the way Viking had been.If it means having humans live elsewhere for
a longer period of time, but not reproduce, then thats something that
might happen within the next 50 years or so. (Even some limited degree of
reproduction might be feasible, recognizing that primates will be
primates.) But if the idea is to construct a self-sustaining environment
where humans can persist indefinitely with only modest help from Earththe
working definition of a colony, according to the various European
colonies outside of Europethen Id say this is very far in the future, if
its possible at all. We currently have a very inadequate understanding of
how to build closed ecosystems that are robust to perturbation by
introduced organisms or nonbiological events (Biosphere 2, for example),
and I suspect that the contained ecosystem problem will turn out to be much
more challenging than the vast majority of space colonization advocates
realize. There are a wide range of technical problems to solve, another
being air handling. We havent bothered to colonize areas underwater on
Earth yet. Its far more challenging to colonize a place where theres
hardly any atmosphere at all.Catharine A. Conley, NASA planetary
protection
officerhttps://www.scientificamerican.com/article/20-big-questions-about-the-future-of-humanity/
*
I think its a dangerous delusion to envisage mass emigration from Earth. Theres nowhere else in the solar system thats as comfortable as even the top of Everest or the South Pole. We must address the worlds problems here. Nevertheless, Id guess that by the next century, there will be groups of privately funded adventurers living on Mars and thereafter perhaps elsewhere in the solar system. We should surely wish these pioneer settlers good luck in using all the cyborg techniques and biotech to adapt to alien environments. Within a few centuries they will have become a new species: the posthuman era will have begun. Travel beyond the solar system is an enterprise for posthumansorganic or inorganic.
Martin Rees, British cosmologist and astrophysicist
12. Will we ever colonize outer space?
That depends on the definition of colonize.If landing robots qualifies, then weve already done it. If it means sending microbes from Earth and having them persist and maybe grow, then, unfortunately, its not unlikely that weve done that as wellpossibly on Mars with the Phoenix spacecraft and almost certainly inside the Curiosity rover, which carries a heat source and was not fully baked the way Viking had been.
If it means having humans live elsewhere for a longer period of time, but not reproduce, then thats something that might happen within the next 50 years or so. (Even some limited degree of reproduction might be feasible, recognizing that primates will be primates.) But if the idea is to construct a self-sustaining environment where humans can persist indefinitely with only modest help from Earththe working definition of a colony, according to the various European colonies outside of Europethen Id say this is very far in the future, if its possible at all. We currently have a very inadequate understanding of how to build closed ecosystems that are robust to perturbation by introduced organisms or nonbiological events (
Biosphere 2
, for example), and I suspect that the contained ecosystem problem will turn out to be much more challenging than the vast majority of space colonization advocates realize. There are a wide range of technical problems to solve, another being air handling. We havent bothered to colonize areas underwater on Earth yet. Its far more challenging to colonize a place where theres hardly any atmosphere at all.
Catharine A. Conley, NASA planetary protection officer
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/20-big-questions-about-the-future-of-humanity/
How much actual work have either of these two done on space settlements? My guess: none.
The second one doesnt seem to realize that Biosphere II stayed pretty close to closed for 13 months on the first try. Scientific and marketing flop, definitely, but pretty much an engineering success (how many of your projects worked for 13 months before failure on the first try?). Even the fact that they had to replenish the O2 proves that the system was in fact close to airtight.
The first settlements probably wont be far flung outposts. They will probably be quite close to Earth, probably LEO over the equator where radiation levels are low below 500-600 km, and will have frequent resupply from Earth. Economics will drive them towards greater independence and more closed eco-systems but the first settlements dont need that for survival. Like a human child, they will need help for quite some time, but eventually they will grow strong, head out further from Earth, and settle at least the solar system and arguably the galaxy.
See http://space.alglobus.net/papers/Easy.pdf for details
> On Aug 28, 2017, at 11:21 PM, sraj sraj99@... [spacesettlers] wrote:
>
> 1. Does humanity have a future beyond Earth?
> I think its a dangerous delusion to envisage mass emigration from Earth. Theres nowhere else in the solar system thats as comfortable as even the top of Everest or the South Pole. We must address the worlds problems here. Nevertheless, Id guess that by the next century, there will be groups of privately funded adventurers living on Mars and thereafter perhaps elsewhere in the solar system. We should surely wish these pioneer settlers good luck in using all the cyborg techniques and biotech to adapt to alien environments. Within a few centuries they will have become a new species: the posthuman era will have begun. Travel beyond the solar system is an enterprise for posthumansorganic or inorganic.
> Martin Rees, British cosmologist and astrophysicist
>
> 12. Will we ever colonize outer space?
> That depends on the definition of colonize. If landing robots qualifies, then weve already done it. If it means sending microbes from Earth and having them persist and maybe grow, then, unfortunately, its not unlikely that weve done that as wellpossibly on Mars with the Phoenix spacecraft and almost certainly inside the Curiosity rover, which carries a heat source and was not fully baked the way Viking had been.
> If it means having humans live elsewhere for a longer period of time, but not reproduce, then thats something that might happen within the next 50 years or so. (Even some limited degree of reproduction might be feasible, recognizing that primates will be primates.) But if the idea is to construct a self-sustaining environment where humans can persist indefinitely with only modest help from Earththe working definition of a colony, according to the various European colonies outside of Europethen Id say this is very far in the future, if its possible at all. We currently have a very inadequate understanding of how to build closed ecosystems that are robust to perturbation by introduced organisms or nonbiological events (Biosphere 2, for example), and I suspect that the contained ecosystem problem will turn out to be much more challenging than the vast majority of space colonization advocates realize. There are a wide range of technical problems to solve, another being air handling. We havent bothered to colonize areas underwater on Earth yet. Its far more challenging to colonize a place where theres hardly any atmosphere at all.
> Catharine A. Conley, NASA planetary protection officer
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/20-big-questions-about-the-future-of-humanity/
>
The first one doesnt even seem to realize the free-space settlements are possible.
The second one doesnt seem to realize that Biosphere II stayed pretty close to closed for 13 months on the first try. Scientific and marketing flop, definitely, but pretty much an engineering success (how many of your projects worked for 13 months before failure on the first try?). Even the fact that they had to replenish the O2 proves that the system was in fact close to airtight.
The first settlements probably wont be far flung outposts. They will probably be quite close to Earth, probably LEO over the equator where radiation levels are low below 500-600 km, and will have frequent resupply from Earth. Economics will drive them towards greater independence and more closed eco-systems but the first settlements dont need that for survival. Like a human child, they will need help for quite some time, but eventually they will grow strong, head out further from Earth, and settle at least the solar system and arguably the galaxy.
See
http://space.alglobus.net/papers/Easy.pdf
for details
On Aug 28, 2017, at 11:21 PM, sraj
sraj99@...
[spacesettlers] <
spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
> wrote:
1. Does humanity have a future beyond Earth?
I think its a dangerous delusion to envisage mass emigration from Earth. Theres nowhere else in the solar system thats as comfortable as even the top of Everest or the South Pole. We must address the worlds problems here. Nevertheless, Id guess that by the next century, there will be groups of privately funded adventurers living on Mars and thereafter perhaps elsewhere in the solar system. We should surely wish these pioneer settlers good luck in using all the cyborg techniques and biotech to adapt to alien environments. Within a few centuries they will have become a new species: the posthuman era will have begun. Travel beyond the solar system is an enterprise for posthumansorganic or inorganic.
Martin Rees, British cosmologist and astrophysicist
12. Will we ever colonize outer space?
That depends on the definition of colonize. If landing robots qualifies, then weve already done it. If it means sending microbes from Earth and having them persist and maybe grow, then, unfortunately, its not unlikely that weve done that as wellpossibly on Mars with the Phoenix spacecraft and almost certainly inside the Curiosity rover, which carries a heat source and was not fully baked the way Viking had been.
If it means having humans live elsewhere for a longer period of time, but not reproduce, then thats something that might happen within the next 50 years or so. (Even some limited degree of reproduction might be feasible, recognizing that primates will be primates.) But if the idea is to construct a self-sustaining environment where humans can persist indefinitely with only modest help from Earththe working definition of a colony, according to the various European colonies outside of Europethen Id say this is very far in the future, if its possible at all. We currently have a very inadequate understanding of how to build closed ecosystems that are robust to perturbation by introduced organisms or nonbiological events (
Biosphere 2
, for example), and I suspect that the contained ecosystem problem will turn out to be much more challenging than the vast majority of space colonization advocates realize. There are a wide range of technical problems to solve, another being air handling. We havent bothered to colonize areas underwater on Earth yet. Its far more challenging to colonize a place where theres hardly any atmosphere at all.
Catharine A. Conley, NASA planetary protection officer
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/20-big-questions-about-the-future-of-humanity/
sailorbarsoom@... [spacesettlers] wrote:
> is, is to try building one. I agree that we should get real good at this
> on Earth, on land, before we have a group of live human beings depending
> on it to remain live human beings.
Agreed. Though there's an interesting philosophical question as to
whether we should rely entirely on ecological mechanisms, or whether
it's fine to include industrial processes in the mix.
Biosphere 2 was trying to rely (almost) entirely on ecology, but found
that to be a very difficult thing to keep balanced. My own feeling is,
instead of just trying to recreate how nature does it, look at the whole
thing as an engineering problem, and tackle each part with whatever the
current best solution is. In at least some cases, that's likely to be
an industrial process, which is much easier to control than an
ecological one.
So rather than throwing everything plus the kitchen sink into a closed
environment and hoping it just self-regulates, we might be better off
starting with a fully industrial life support system, and then adding
plants and animals that we want, and the minimum additional
plants/animals needed to support those (e.g. pollinators). And if the
base of our food chain is very un-natural but easily-controlled vats of
plankton or some such, that's just fine.
Best,
- Joe
Success of such a venture would be a huge advance for agriculture,
environmental sciences (recycling of waste) and social sciences (people
living together). Investment of a $ would give back $100 in returns, not
just for space related activities, also for managing our activities on
planet earth.
Selvaraj
On 30 August 2017 at 11:25, killgore4darkskies@... [spacesettlers] <
spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>
> I have always been fascinated by Biosphere 2, read a number of articles
> and a couple of books on it, and now had a chance to tour it ... very sad
> to see the state it's in now. I don't understand why a 3rd and 4th and 5th
> air-tight Mission was not undertaken - by now 99% of the kinks could have
> been worked out so people could be fully simulating a space colony.
>
Regards,
Selvaraj
On 30 August 2017 at 11:25,
killgore4darkskies@...
[spacesettlers]
<
spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
>
I have always been fascinated by Biosphere 2, read a number of articles and a couple of books on it, and now had a chance to tour it ... very sad to see the state it's in now. I don't understand why a 3rd and 4th and 5th air-tight Mission was not undertaken - by now 99% of the kinks could have been worked out so people could be fully simulating a space colony.
lack of funding ..
Servus
markus
> "killgore4darkskies@... [spacesettlers]"
> hat am 30. August 2017 um 07:55 geschrieben:
>
> I have always been fascinated by Biosphere 2, read a number of articles
> and a couple of books on it, and now had a chance to tour it ... very sad to
> see the state it's in now. I don't understand why a 3rd and 4th and 5th
> air-tight Mission was not undertaken - by now 99% of the kinks could have been
> worked out so people could be fully simulating a space colony.
>
>
biosphere II was pretty expensive to run ..
Servus
markus
"killgore4darkskies@... [spacesettlers]" hat am 30. August 2017 um 07:55 geschrieben:
I have always been fascinated by Biosphere 2, read a number of articles and a couple of books on it, and now had a chance to tour it ... very sad to see the state it's in now. I don't understand why a 3rd and 4th and 5th air-tight Mission was not undertaken - by now 99% of the kinks could have been worked out so people could be fully simulating a space colony.
It is a little bit annoying that thehistorical information is changing over time. The pretty picture book aimed at students "Inside Biosphere 2, Earth Science Under Glass" by Mary Kay Carson has one slim mention of the Space aspect of the original project:"The goal of Biosphere 2's creators was to build an enclosed living environment that could provide humans with all of their needed air, water and food. Why? To prove that it could be done, and that they were smart enough to do it. The project's funders also wanted to invent and sell technologies for living in space stations and on other planets, like Mars."As if you didn't know that the Space background was going to be minimally mentioned in the book, what with the subtitle "EARTH SCIENCE Under Glass".A bit more depth to the overall history and day to day engineering work is Life Under Glass by Abigail Alling, Mark Nelson and Sally Silverstone. Forward by Joe Allen (Astronaut, original supporter of O'Neillian concepts and Executive Vice President of Space Industries International when the book came out in 1993.)I thought that "The Human Experiment" by Jane Poynter was a great read. Came out in 2006 ... I'm putting that on my re-read list not just because i recall it had a lot of full tech and space background but also because, let me check it, yes, also because it has that story of Steve Bannon's involvement. Yes, that Steve Bannon.But if it is the Closed Loop tech that you are really interested in beyond the specifics of Biosphere 2 then save up your dollars and try to get a copy of "Manmade Closed Ecological Systems" by Gitelson, Lisovsky and MacElrioy. Sites try to gouge you on the price of this one but if you poke around you can get it for a realistic amount. I think I got it from Barnes & Noble online for 45 bucks. If you're new to the tech don't let this one scare you at all, it is very readable. Honest.Hope some of that helps and thanks for putting this back in the top of mind. Closed Loop systems are a very important tech that is languishing and needing new champions to go out and do some experimentation.RobertOn August 30, 2017 at 2:02 AM "baur baur baur@chello.at [spacesettlers]" wrote: lack of funding .. biosphere II was pretty expensive to run .. Servusmarkus "killgore4darkskies@... [spacesettlers]" hat am 30. August 2017 um 07:55 geschrieben: I have always been fascinated by Biosphere 2, read a number of articles and a couple of books on it, and now had a chance to tour it ... very sad to see the state it's in now. I don't understand why a 3rd and 4th and 5th air-tight Mission was not undertaken - by now 99% of the kinks could have been worked out so people could be fully simulating a space colony.