# 2859 bygeorge@... on May 18, 2002, 3:09 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Texas has always had the death penalty.. yet it has the highest
numbers of murders per capita.
killing each other.
It's nuts. There's no real justice here because innocent people get
executed and some of the quilty are acquitted because of a few anti-
death penalty jurists.
Looks like the U.S., as with slavery, will be one of the last of
world's countries to abolish it.
George
# 2860 byRavenart@... on May 18, 2002, 5:11 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
There's another alternative to death penalty: exile or suidice by choice.
That way, we can avoid taking innocent lives and the really guilty can take
their own lives without us having to compromised our own justice system.
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com
# 2861 bygeorge@... on May 18, 2002, 5:40 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Suicide is murdering yourself. Many Christians and possibly other
groups are strongly against it. It's also a way to escape
punishment, scorn, and harassment from the courts-are-perfect
believers.
actually be quilty in reality and is inclined to repeat the crime).
You need to be able to let the person go free should it be discovered
later that they were actually innocent and did not commit the crime
at all.
You can't let the person free if you killed him and the leaks of the
person's innocense, if he's discovered later to be so, doesn't make
the legal system look good at all.
George
# 2862 bylucio@... on May 18, 2002, 6:44 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
From: "cygonaut"
To:
Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2002 2:40 PM
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Death penalty
> Exiling only gives another place the problem (should the person
> actually be quilty in reality and is inclined to repeat the crime).
>
Not if there are other places where the "crime" of which the person is
guilty is not considered a crime at all.
In a future with countless space colonies, scattered across hundreds of
gigameters and isolated from each other (at least when compred to
present-day Earth-based cities) I would think that each colony would have a
different culture and different values, and a "criminal" could eventually
find a place where he or she fits.
[snikt]
> George
Lucio
# 2863 byRavenart@... on May 18, 2002, 11:37 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In a message dated 5/18/02 1:41:14 PM, george@... writes:
groups are strongly against it. It's also a way to escape
punishment, scorn, and harassment from the courts-are-perfect
believers. >>
Suicide's also a expressison of self-ownership so that mean you cannot be
guilty of murder if you hurt only yourself. Christians don't like it because
they believed that people are God's slaves and property by virtue of
creatorship. But we are in America where there's a seperation of church and
state so their opinions don't carry water. Your logic is same as the 19th
century people who put people to death for attempting suicide. I do not see
suicide as a punishment but as a reinsitution for life taken, value for
value. When I say reinsitution that means the guilty have the control over
his person and life. As for scorn, even if the court throw out your case
lack of proof beyond resonable doubt, there's oftentime enough facts that
everybody know who's really guilty. One only have to look at people who
committed murders during the civil right movenment.
Carl E. Mullin
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com
# 2864 byRavenart@... on May 18, 2002, 11:39 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In a message dated 5/18/02 2:45:59 PM, lucio@... writes:
gigameters and isolated from each other (at least when compred to
present-day Earth-based cities) I would think that each colony would have a
different culture and different values, and a "criminal" could eventually
find a place where he or she fits. >>
That's true, except for the customary law that stress actions againest
murder, thief and fraud even along theives.
Carl E. Mullin
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com
# 2865 byepibeemie@... on May 20, 2002, 1:34 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
>Suicide is murdering yourself. Many Christians and possibly other groups
>are strongly against it. It's also a way to escape punishment, scorn, and
>harassment from the courts-are-perfect believers.
are many and sometimes well-publicized. But ever hear the phrase, "the
perfect is the enemy of the good?" If you're searching for a way to
approach criminal justice, don't let an awareness of the failings of our
current system cause you to throw it out, and then go looking for the
perfect system, because you'll spend eternity looking for the perfect.
As for the statement that exiled criminals may eventually find a home in
another culture, let's not forget that a substantial number of felons are
seriously mentally ill. The Journal of the American Medical Association
recently published a study by a group of psychiatrists, which found that
almost every Death Row inmate in the study (several dozen) had two things in
common--evidence of brain damage (learning disabilities, and/or physical
evidence revealed by CAT scan), and a history of physical abuse as a child.
Let's not lose sight of the fact that crime is a symptom of psychiatric
pathology, not a lifestyle choice.
Attempting suicide is also very often a symptom of severe depression. It is
and ought to be taboo, because its most common cause (depression) is simply
a chemical imbalance in the brain, one which is now much more treatable.
Suicide may also be a response to a hopeless situation, like facing life
imprisonment without parole. Although in such a setting it's almost
understandable, still we wouldn't want to encourage it among folks in that
situation, because of the example it would set. For people with untreated
depression, life presents hopeless situations almost daily.
As a Texan squeamish about the death penalty, I wish I could convince more
people that capital punishment is irrational. But a common response to the
above arguments is, "Well we've all got problems. We shouldn't let every
sicko think he can kill his way into a lifetime of free meals and medical
care. Besides the Bible...."
http://www.hotmail.com
# 2866 byaglobus@... on May 20, 2002, 3:57 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
FYI: When the people on death row in Illinois were given DNA tests
recently, it was discovered that 11 of them definitely did not commit
the crime for which they were convicted.
>
> It's nuts. There's no real justice here because innocent people get
> executed and some of the quilty are acquitted because of a few anti-
> death penalty jurists.
>
The materials in one asteroid (the largest ) are sufficient to make
orbital space colonies with ~500 times the surface area of the Earth in
usable real estate. See http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/
for details.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
# 2867 byaglobus@... on May 20, 2002, 4:02 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
It has been proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that in a traditional
police lineup witnesses will pick the individual that most resembles the
perpetrator. However, if the people in the lineup are shown to the
witness *one at a time* and the witness must say yes or no, the number
of false identifications falls dramatically. None-the-less, most police
use the inaccurate line-up technique and courts accept it. Just hope
you don't look like someone who commits a crime in your neighborhood!
to find the truth has been proven accurate by systematic, well-designed
studies.
On Saturday, May 18, 2002, at 10:40 AM, cygonaut wrote:
> It's also a way to escape
> punishment, scorn, and harassment from the courts-are-perfect
> believers.
>
The dinosaurs were destroyed by an asteroid because they weren't
space-faring. It's almost as if Gaia then thought "Well, dinosaurs
worked pretty well, but space-faring is necessary. Maybe I'll should
try mammals this time." Humanity is now developing systems to detect and
deflect asteroids, and could build orbital space colonies to spread
beyond Earth to insure life would survive a planetary catastrophe.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
# 2868 byepibeemie@... on May 20, 2002, 4:53 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
>In general, NONE of the techniques used by the criminal justice system
>to find the truth has been proven accurate by systematic, well-designed
>studies.
have is shot through with errors.
Meantime I have no choice but to support what is in place.
# 2869 byaglobus@... on May 20, 2002, 5:28 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
There is a little bit of research, for example, the one-at-a-time
lineup, that could be implemented. More important, we need a major
research program to systematically examine the efficacy of each part of
criminal justice system. It will cost billions and be well worth it.
Some of current practice will undoubtedly turn out to work great, the
bits that don't will need to have the alternatives carefully evaluated
before changes are made. I'm not up the task (I have a family to raise
and I'm a little short of cash today :-).
>
>> In general, NONE of the techniques used by the criminal justice system
>> to find the truth has been proven accurate by systematic, well-designed
>> studies.
>
> I beg you, please, come up with a system that works better. Clearly
> what we
> have is shot through with errors.
>
> Meantime I have no choice but to support what is in place.
>
Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
# 2870 bypanamabob@... on May 20, 2002, 5:57 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
those changes to the criminal justice system may be dissapointing in a different way...
you cant win.
remember in the movie casa blanca? the chief of police orders DOUBLE the normal number of suspects to be rounded up, out of respect for the importance of the victim.
:-)
bob
SLF
# 2871 byian.woollard@... on May 20, 2002, 9:35 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Brad Walsh wrote:
> people that capital punishment is irrational.
Last time I heard it cost more to put somebody on deathrow than
just lock them up for the rest of their life... and then
there's the 'accidental' deaths; oh dear we just fried the
wrong guy/gal.
> But a common response to the
> above arguments is, "Well we've all got problems. We shouldn't let every
> sicko think he can kill his way into a lifetime of free meals and medical
> care. Besides the Bible...."
Yeah, good old Leviticus; he recommends death for cursing your
parents. A real moderate that guy.
I prefer the Ian M. Banks solution. You kill someone, you get a
drone that follows you around everywhere and makes sure you
don't do it again. He claimed it was social death; personally
I suspected the opposite... but I'm sure the drone would be a
real nuisance; probably it would go around introducing you to
everyone and being really boring... I think this solution could
work ;-)
--
- Ian Woollard (ian.woollard@...)
"Is a planetary surface the right place for an expanding
technological civilization?"
- Gerard O'Neill
# 2872 byRavenart@... on May 21, 2002, 3:35 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In a message dated 5/20/02 9:34:49 AM, epibeemie@... writes:another culture, let's not forget that a substantial number of felons are
seriously mentally ill.>>
Two problems.
There's no real objective measurement of mental illness and the real
illnesses can be caused by other than brain damage and learning disability.
The damage and learning disablity alone don't cause crime, it is merely one
small factor. Many of self-made rich people like Richard Branson have
learning disbility. I was born deaf but I has never stole anything or kill
anybody out of rage over my deafness. People who treat me as dumb because of
my deafness, I shrugged off as merely stupid. Another very important point
to remember is that medicalization of mental illness is actually a BIG step
back. A quick look at any history book will show that giving a doctor power
to imprison a mental ill actually corrupt that doctor and lead him to use
unspeakable methods to "cure" patient when there may be no cure at all. In
fact imprisoning ANY mental ill can make situtation worse rather than better.
The best treatments are often found not in hospitals but in secular or
religious hopsices and along stone-age tribes. The reason is that the people
there treat the ill's self-ownership with respect lacking in medical prisons.
Indeed many of the ills in tribes are made shamans which give them a healthy
self-respect which eventually help him learn to fit within the tribe. The
hopsices dose the same thing, they treat the ills as normal even if
child-like and they insist on good respect for themeslves and for others. Of
course the doctors want to monopoly the mental ill treatment and so they
lobby the state for complete control. Why? Because they're "experts" even
if they don't really know the causes or real successful treatments. So much
for their "expertness"! Some drugs are helpful but self-respect is far more
important.
Also, another problem is that a lot of people assume the people who commit
crimes must be ill. Bullshit. There's many different causes. One young
teen boy back in 1931 was sent to a prison for life because he stole an apple
to feed his sister because they have no parents. Some do it for thrills,
some for money, some for love, some for purpose of impressing. Different
causes for different people. Some are even innocent or has kill for justice.
One of the basic problems with discussing thing like mental illness and
prisons and death is that there' too much people thinking in term of "groups"
when individuals is far more important consideration. Also, I want to keep
in mind that many of crimes are made crimes not because they are bad or have
victims but because some pressure groups want such acts crimicalized in order
to get money or subsides from the government. Governments are too happy to
do that because the more crimes they can find a guilty party for, the more
money the courts will make for them. Courts can be a major profit centers
for the states too. That's why the legal system is so complex here in USA.
If the doctors think some of the felons are seriously mental ill, so much the
better!
As for suicide. The causes are not always depression. Brutus committed
suicide not because he was depressed but in order to avoid his arrest and
disgrace before the Roman public by angery Caeser. Some kills to atone for
their sins. Some kill themselves to protest activities such as the vietnam
war. Some to avoid slavery and etc. Of course, sometime, the suiciders may
try to kill themselves because they are really guilty and they know it!
Calling murder and suicide an act of illness is too generalized and too
generous. The important thing is that we want to restore the peace without
compromising ANYone's self-ownership.
Carl E. Mullin
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com
# 2873 byRavenart@... on May 21, 2002, 3:36 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In a message dated 5/20/02 9:34:49 AM, epibeemie@... writes:
another culture, let's not forget that a substantial number of felons are
seriously mentally ill. >>
By the way, I don't believe in gods.
Carl E. Mullin
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com
# 2874 byaglobus@... on May 21, 2002, 3:46 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
On Monday, May 20, 2002, at 08:35 PM, Ravenart@... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/20/02 9:34:49 AM, epibeemie@... writes:
>
> another culture, let's not forget that a substantial number of felons
> are
> seriously mentally ill.>>
>
><< Attempting suicide is also very often a symptom of severe
> depression. >>
>
> Two problems.
>
> There's no real objective measurement of mental illness and the real
> illnesses can be caused by other than brain damage and learning
> disability.
diseases. Actually, recent advances in brain imaging can show some
mental illness quite clearly.
The dinosaurs were destroyed by an asteroid because they weren't
space-faring. It's almost as if Gaia then thought "Well, dinosaurs
worked pretty well, but space-faring is necessary. Maybe I'll should
try mammals this time." Humanity is now developing systems to detect and
deflect asteroids, and could build orbital space colonies to spread
beyond Earth to insure life would survive a planetary catastrophe.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
# 2875 byepibeemie@... on May 21, 2002, 7:27 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
>another culture, let's not forget that a substantial number of felons are
>seriously mentally ill.>>
>
>>
>
>Two problems.
>
>There's no real objective measurement of mental illness and the real
>illnesses can be caused by other than brain damage and learning disability.
measureable, black-and-white diagnostic criteria for most diseases, against
which mental illness seems slippery and ill-defined. The truth is that many
well-known syndromes and illnesses are diagnosed entirely on the physician's
impressions, hunches, etc. This works fine more often than not, and the
exceptions are carefully studied and considered--it's not just guesswork.
If there's not a blood test or an x-ray diagnostic for mental illness, it's
a pretty practical rule of thumb that a person who consistently and with no
reason sees and hears things that no one else sees and hears, they probably
are "out of touch with reality" (the classic shorthand criterion for mental
illness).
Now before you jump on your horse about whose reality, how can we judge what
"reality" is, and why are we judging anybody anyway, please keep in mind
that there's no reason for a doctor and family to put anybody through this
if they're functioning just fine. When people start starving themselves
because they're standing in a corner for a week at a stretch because in
they're mind they're surrounded by razor sharp knives; when people are
hallucinating so wildly they are in danger of walking into traffic; when
people start taking up arms (it's rare, I know, but it happens--happened
here in Texas a couple of years ago) and blowing away strangers after a
history of many years of bizarre, violent behavior; when people attempt
suicide repeatedly for no apparent reason--these people need to checked out
by a doctor, especially if there are pharmaceuticals that can improve their
safety and longevity or that of others.
>The damage and learning disablity alone don't cause crime, it is merely one
>small factor.
Go back and read what I wrote--I said it was the combination of brain damage
and physical abuse. In fact the authors emphasized on this point--that many
many thousands of people live with learning disabilities and focal brain
damage and live productive lives; also that people can and do grow beyond
the scars of childhood physical abuse all the time. The authors' focus was
that the combination of the two was extraordinarily common in people
convicted of murder, and that in no case in the inmates they studied was
only one of the two present. The article, and my statement, was meant to
point out that it takes a peculiar combination of neural damage and
psychological stresses to overcome the natural aversion to taking another's
life.
>Another very important point
>to remember is that medicalization of mental illness is actually a BIG step
>back. A quick look at any history book will show that giving a doctor
>power
>to imprison a mental ill actually corrupt that doctor and lead him to use
>unspeakable methods to "cure" patient when there may be no cure at all. In
>fact imprisoning ANY mental ill can make situtation worse rather than
>better.
A quick look at history will show you that involuntary commitments have
disappeared from the mental health lexicon entirely in the US. No one ever
stays in a mental hospital more than 45 days any more (the length of
insurance coverage on the most generous policies), unless their family can
pay out of their own resources. Partly that's because medical care for
mental illness has gone beyond the bizarre and mutilating experiments and
the "benign incarceration" of the 1950s, to an age of increasing
pharmaceutical competence. It just doesn't take 45 days to get the mentally
ill stabilized, on their meds and back on an even keel so they can be
discharged. The tragedy is the number of mentally ill who clog the
underpasses and homeless shelters, unmedicated, hungry, dirty, confused.
The vast majority of these are harmless, except that they are wasting their
lives hiding from their demons, living hand to mouth, and unable to earn
enough to rise above that level.
> The best treatments are often found not in hospitals but in secular or
>religious hopsices and along stone-age tribes. The reason is that the
>people
>there treat the ill's self-ownership with respect lacking in medical
>prisons.
Agreed. A loving community beats an underpass any day. But most
schizophrenics aren't that lucky. With zero government financial support,
there are just too few people who care enough about the mentally ill to
carry out these life-saving roles.
>Of
>course the doctors want to monopoly the mental ill treatment and so they
>lobby the state for complete control. Why? Because they're "experts" even
>if they don't really know the causes or real successful treatments. So
>much
>for their "expertness"! Some drugs are helpful but self-respect is far
>more
>important.
The various schools of psychology--Freudian, Rogerian, and others--have a go
at non-pharmaceutical cures from time to time. Most, although they have a
strong financial and professional interest in proving that they can cure
schizophrenia without drugs, will readily concede nowdays that "talking
cures" don't make much progress. I'm with you that respect and love will
protect the schizophrenic from so many of the ills that make their lives
dangerous and degrading. But Thorazine stops hallucinations, period. It's
as reliable as penicillin.
>Also, another problem is that a lot of people assume the people who commit
>crimes must be ill. Bullshit. There's many different causes.
Read what I said at the top. I said a lot of criminals are mentally ill.
Not all. Huge distinction.
Different
>causes for different people. One of the basic problems with discussing
>thing like mental illness and
>prisons and death is that there' too much people thinking in term of
>"groups"
>when individuals is far more important consideration.
I'm on your side there. It's natural for planners and armchair cabinet
ministers to lump, to generalize, to simplify. Crime is a complex human
activity, and we as space colony planners should keep that squarely in mind.
One size definitely doesn't fit all. It's really easy for a dictatorship
to throw people like Bishop Tutu into jail for life, rather than try to
understand their perspective.
Also, I want to keep
>in mind that many of crimes are made crimes not because they are bad or
>have
>victims but because some pressure groups want such acts crimicalized in
>order
>to get money or subsides from the government. Governments are too happy to
>do that because the more crimes they can find a guilty party for, the more
>money the courts will make for them. Courts can be a major profit centers
>for the states too. That's why the legal system is so complex here in USA.
>If the doctors think some of the felons are seriously mental ill, so much
>the
>better!
Got any more authority figures you want to throw in while you're at it?
>As for suicide. The causes are not always depression.
Granted. And again I was oversimplifying. But suicide is an act that
happens with alarming frequency (it's in the top 10 causes of death in any
county in the US), and suicide is an outcome of treatable depression a large
enough percentage of the time that I just can't help getting on my soap box
about it.
One thing that many people don't know is that suicides can happen in
epidemics--a highly-publicized suicide can increase the suicide rate in the
immediate community of the first, following a statistical model closely
resembling an infectious disease outbreak. Anyone who argues for the
"right" to commit suicide is spreading a fatal disease, as far as I'm
concerned.
http://www.hotmail.com
# 2876 byRavenart@... on May 22, 2002, 2:39 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
In a message dated 5/21/02 3:28:43 PM, epibeemie@... writes:
"right" to commit suicide is spreading a fatal disease, as far as I'm
concerned. >>
And brutal prisons with its rapes and violence and restrictments on education
and useful work which could be used to pay resitutions, fines and build
saving for the day out of prison any better?! Sorry, but I stand with author
Robert Heinlein who considered prisons to be so degrading and so denying of
human spirit that he would never allow prisons in his world if he were to be
the Grand Designer. Death or exile is far better. Beside, there's a rather
a lot of suicides in prisons even by people who has NEVER committed any
violent crime and may even be innocent! If there must be death then let the
true murderer do the deed to themselves and not the innocent!
Carl E. Mullin
visionary artist and entrepreneur
homo asteralis
ravenart@...
www.ravenartstudio.com