So, when we control the Habitat environment, should we make daylight
last for x number of hours and then abbreviate the dusking and
dawning processes to a mnimum amount of time. Quick ramp-up and ramp-
down.

We gain more daylight of a uniform light level.

We lose the signaling effect of a decreasing/increasing light levels
and their pyschological effect.

What do you thnk?

TangoMan

From: victoriatangoman
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:51 AM
Subject: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

> So, when we control the Habitat environment, should we make daylight
> last for x number of hours and then abbreviate the dusking and
> dawning processes to a mnimum amount of time. Quick ramp-up and ramp-
> down.
>
> We gain more daylight of a uniform light level.
>
> We lose the signaling effect of a decreasing/increasing light levels
> and their pyschological effect.
>
> What do you thnk?
>
> TangoMan

If you live in the tropics dusk and dawn are practically non-existant, so
the psychological effect would depend on if you were used to having dusk and
dawn. I found it very strange experiencing Christmas in the middle of
summer when I lived in New Zealand. You get used to it. No, I don't think
dusk and dawn are necessary.

Jennie Bishop

Whacha mean dawn and dusk are non existet in the tropics? I'M FROM the
tropics (Panama-bob). The twilite is VERY in place... That is for many
people the best and peaceful parts of the day. The waking song and sleepg
song of birds, the forcing of the stop of labor in the fields, etc etc.

Those twilite zones are dependent on the roatation of the Earth and the
stationarty 9relative) position of the Sun. As the Earth rotates, the edge
of sunlight bounces and curves through the atmosphere/clouds to sneak light
"around the corner" of the direct sun shine.

How would this not occur in the tropics as any other place? If you are
located in a valley perhaps the effect would not be as noticable, but its
still there.

There re too many physiological trace effects of the planet we were created
on that we simply don't understand yet to be out of hand changing on a
reproduced environment. If we want to maintain what little health we seem to
have, it may be wise to go back to somewhat earlier parameters of our earth
environment... this includes running creeks oxiginating and vortexing water
molecules, a true dark nite with no articicial light to interupt the
bio-sensors reading of night and day time, heritage food items that have
been discovered to have the trace X elements that have been accidentally /
unknowingly hybrided out of our food soures. Same with ley fields in the
crust beneath our feet.

We slowly have thought are selves Masters of our organism and are suffering
many maladies because of these actions. The enfernal articial light affects
sleeping habits, endocrine and other hormonal balances, weight, mitocondria
energy production and more

*************************

From: "Jennie Bishop"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 3:19 AM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

>
> From: victoriatangoman
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 7:51 AM
> Subject: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?
>
> > So, when we control the Habitat environment, should we make daylight
> > last for x number of hours and then abbreviate the dusking and
> > dawning processes to a mnimum amount of time. Quick ramp-up and ramp-
> > down.
> >
> > We gain more daylight of a uniform light level.
> >
> > We lose the signaling effect of a decreasing/increasing light levels
> > and their pyschological effect.
> >
> > What do you thnk?
> >
> > TangoMan
>
> If you live in the tropics dusk and dawn are practically non-existant, so
> the psychological effect would depend on if you were used to having dusk
and
> dawn. I found it very strange experiencing Christmas in the middle of
> summer when I lived in New Zealand. You get used to it. No, I don't
think

On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 11:51 PM, victoriatangoman wrote:

>
> So, when we control the Habitat environment, should we make daylight
> last for x number of hours and then abbreviate the dusking and
> dawning processes to a mnimum amount of time. Quick ramp-up and ramp-
> down.
>
> We gain more daylight of a uniform light level.

I like the changes. I would rather see weather art. Since the lighting
system will almost certainly be computerized -- along with possible wind
generation, artificial rain, and perhaps misters -- why not use that
control to create beauty?

Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 05:58 AM, panamabob wrote:

> We slowly have thought are selves Masters of our organism and are
> suffering
> many maladies because of these actions.

If this is true, then why do those populations living in the most
artificial environments (US, Europe, Japan, a few others) have the
longest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality?

The materials in one asteroid (the largest ) are sufficient to make
orbital space colonies with ~500 times the surface area of the Earth in
usable real estate. See http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/
for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

I am from the tropics too (Brazil) and I also found the declaration quite
strange. However, I think that Jennie just meant that in mid-latitudes dusk
and dawn periods are *longer* than in the Tropics. Here in Brazil the sky
gets red for less than half an hour around sunset and sunrise, but I
remember that, in mid-latitudes like that of NYC, the sky assumes a
yellowish-orange-red tint for a long time around dusk and dawn because the
sun stays more time closer to the horizon.

Incidentally, I found very strange the fact that the sun *never* crosses the
zenith in the mid latitudes; you just see inclined sunlight coming from the
Southern half of the sky all the time, and there are sides of the streets
that are in shadow all long the year...

Lucio Coelho

From: "panamabob"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

> Whacha mean dawn and dusk are non existet in the tropics? I'M FROM the
> tropics (Panama-bob). The twilite is VERY in place... That is for many
> people the best and peaceful parts of the day. The waking song and sleepg
> song of birds, the forcing of the stop of labor in the fields, etc etc.
>
> Those twilite zones are dependent on the roatation of the Earth and the
> stationarty 9relative) position of the Sun. As the Earth rotates, the edge
> of sunlight bounces and curves through the atmosphere/clouds to sneak
light
> "around the corner" of the direct sun shine.
>
> How would this not occur in the tropics as any other place? If you are
> located in a valley perhaps the effect would not be as noticable, but its
> still there.
>
> There re too many physiological trace effects of the planet we were
created
> on that we simply don't understand yet to be out of hand changing on a
> reproduced environment. If we want to maintain what little health we seem
to
> have, it may be wise to go back to somewhat earlier parameters of our
earth
> environment... this includes running creeks oxiginating and vortexing
water
> molecules, a true dark nite with no articicial light to interupt the
> bio-sensors reading of night and day time, heritage food items that have
> been discovered to have the trace X elements that have been accidentally /
> unknowingly hybrided out of our food soures. Same with ley fields in the
> crust beneath our feet.
>
> We slowly have thought are selves Masters of our organism and are
suffering
> many maladies because of these actions. The enfernal articial light
affects
> sleeping habits, endocrine and other hormonal balances, weight,
mitocondria
> energy production and more
>
> *************************
(...)

Heck we can keep a heart pumping indefinetly in the lab... no science to
that. But would you enjoy staying hooked up in a lab? Is that QUALITY of
life? :-)

I did not say anything about life expectancy; I said MALADIES...nervous
tension, bad digestion, cancers, failed prostrates, sleeping disorders, etc
etc.

You can live a long time with a sleeping disorder, but you not wish to..:-)

Ask your average american if they are happy with the small health quarks
they have sometime and see if they would trade enjoying a great meal without
pill popping, malox, etc. You may be surprised at what folks would tell you
in the progressive countries about these points.

:-)

Besides the longest living so far are not gringos, japanese (who are
inheriting western health maladies) or Europeans.

Its the Okinawans. Of course they too are slowly giving way to western diets
and lifestyle at a loss of their lifespan.

:-)

bad ju ju this modern lifestyle sometime....

From: "Al Globus"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

Well yes, I did say 'practically non-existant', which it is compared to my
experience. This was my point, it's all relative to what you're used to.
Of course I wouldn't advocate just switching all the lights off at 9.00pm.
A slow dimming over a period of about half an hour sounds quite reasonable
to me and of course the reverse in the morning.

Jennie Bishop

On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 01:11 PM, panamabob wrote:

> Heck we can keep a heart pumping indefinetly in the lab... no science to
> that. But would you enjoy staying hooked up in a lab? Is that QUALITY of
> life? :-)

There are no good data on quality of life (at least that I'm aware of),
so you are free to pretend whatever you like. Perhaps quality of life
is better in pre-industrial societies, perhaps not. The anecdotal data
I've seen is that individuals in pre-industrial societies are sick for
large parts of their lives. In one study of a herding community in
Asia, the herdsman worked the herds with 103 degree temperature on a
frequent basis (the often had the flu). If they didn't work (and it's
tough work), they and their family would die. Since the couldn't rest,
recovery took a long time.

However, infant mortality data are not subject to the quality of life
arguments, and industrialized countries win here too.

Entire post:

Heck we can keep a heart pumping indefinetly in the lab... no science to
that. But would you enjoy staying hooked up in a lab? Is that QUALITY of
life? :-)

I did not say anything about life expectancy; I said MALADIES...nervous
tension, bad digestion, cancers, failed prostrates, sleeping disorders,
etc
etc.

You can live a long time with a sleeping disorder, but you not wish
to..:-)

Ask your average american if they are happy with the small health quarks
they have sometime and see if they would trade enjoying a great meal
without
pill popping, malox, etc. You may be surprised at what folks would tell
you
in the progressive countries about these points.

:-)

Besides the longest living so far are not gringos, japanese (who are
inheriting western health maladies) or Europeans.

Its the Okinawans. Of course they too are slowly giving way to western
diets
and lifestyle at a loss of their lifespan.

:-)

bad ju ju this modern lifestyle sometime....

From: "Al Globus"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

On Wednesday, November 27, 2002, at 05:58 AM, panamabob wrote:

We slowly have thought are selves Masters of our organism and are
suffering
many maladies because of these actions.

If this is true, then why do those populations living in the most
artificial environments (US, Europe, Japan, a few others) have the
longest life expectancy and the lowest infant mortality?

Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

perhaps we should back up again and think what its all about...

quality of life to me means that I feel physically and mentally free and
able to to what i please and enjoy it.

It probably can be an ambigious item to quantify, unlike being dead and
alive :-)
Dr. Korvoikian seems to have had a good little industry based on subjective
quality of life issues... those that were alive thanks to technology many
times would contract with him to END that life because of that ambigious
quality issue.

Regular doctors consider this ambigious "quality of life" in their day to
day diagnoses and treatments... "would the patient enjoy life more with or
without the treatment?" If this has escaped you give thanks you have not
been under doctors care yet.

Where does one draw the line?

A herdsman working for fear of dying I dont quite get. Arent we all in that
category? We dont work, we have no money, we then fall to the bottom of the
social structure (charity if there is a gov. or social set-up for that)
where standard of living would seem to be lowest and most uncomfortable and
unattractive. I guess that would be needed for most otherwise the motivation
to work would be small without that consequence.

I see constantly advertisements on TV and magazines for Flu symptom
repressors. You dont cure the Flu, just surpress headaches, scratchy eyes,
mucus, fever, etc. so you can work.

Is this what you meant?

Pain pills for constant back aches for loading dock workers, promises of
restful sleep for migraines, pills for insomiacs, muscle relaxants for
stress relief, etc etc all from work related situ's.

Then we have the fun stuff like "speed" for truck drivers so they can be
productive at the cost of potential health calamities. Prosac for millions
so they don't streess to death, retilin to compensate for artificial dyes
and synthetic flavours that throw off some young people chemical balance
(instead of just getting rid of the artificial chemicals that created the
problem)

Child mortality is a funny stat as well. Do tech abortions count within that
figure of child mortality? Ability to keep alive a crack baby, or other
borderline incident? How about the postponed baby death that are
repressented by run-aways, drug and alcohol and auto accident deaths of
immature kids? Is death of a baby better/worse than death of teenager? I
would think that a teenage death would be more wasteful on societies
resources since that teen ager that didn't get to the productive years yet
and used up decades of useful goods and services.

But I guess the original question was if we are sufficiently knowledgeable
yet to helter skelter create living environments? Adjusting sun and dark
ratios, adjusting food nutrients, magnetic fields, and who knows what other
trace items that are necessary for enjoyable human life ; that ambiguious
"quality" issue again. The question arises because of the "quality" issues
we have now after moderate changes in our human environment.

Dr. Price a few decades ago did a world wide study of indigenous isolated
peoples, trying to find a baseline of sorts. Eskimos, rainforest people,
eastern europeans, islanders and more were studied. His focus was on teeth
and the noticable changes from different diets.

The indigenous, subsisting off the land, did NOT have cavities or mouth
deformations. Only when missionaries or other well-wishers arrived and
started changing sustainable agriculture, etc. did abnormalities arise.

An excellent short read is the article in the Atlantic Monthly called
"1491" a description of life in the americas before Columbus' invasion.

Eye opening considerations...

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/03/mann.htm

When European man was suffering through pestilence and filth, indigenous
americans seemed to have a better deal.

Perhaps this is what we need to look at in considering space stations and
the like.

:-)

From: "Al Globus"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10:54 AM, panamabob wrote:

> A herdsman working for fear of dying I dont quite get. Arent we all in
> that
> category?

If I get the flu, I lay in bed for a few days collecting sick pay. When
I get better, I go back to work.

The dinosaurs were destroyed by an asteroid because they weren't
space-faring. It's almost as if Gaia then thought "Well, dinosaurs
worked pretty well, but space-faring is necessary. Maybe I'll should
try mammals this time." Humanity is now developing systems to detect and
deflect asteroids, and could build orbital space colonies to spread
beyond Earth to insure life would survive a planetary catastrophe.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 10:54 AM, panamabob wrote:

> Child mortality is a funny stat as well. Do tech abortions count within
> that
> figure of child mortality?

No.

> Ability to keep alive a crack baby, or other
> borderline incident?

The number of crack babies is small relative to the entire population.
Since crack is most common in industrialized societies, these kids raise
the infant mortality figures.
> How about the postponed baby death that are
> repressented by run-aways, drug and alcohol and auto accident deaths of
> immature kids?

Infant mortality is measure in the first few months or years of life. I
think death under 5 is the most commonly available measure.

> Is death of a baby better/worse than death of teenager?

That's a matter of your values, I can only say that the teenager has had
more resources invested in them, and either death is a heartbreaker for
the parents (which I know from experience). However, that doesn't tell
you much about a society's health.

We can get fairly good data for most societies on infant mortality and
these data cannot be skewed by a few long-lived individuals. These data
are (more-or-less) comparable. When these data are examined,
industrialized societies have much lower figures than others.

Teenage death rates show up in longevity data for a given society.

All these other issues are interesting, but there aren't enough data to
compare industrialized and non-industrialized societies. In the absence
of data, one can argue endlessly, and pointlessly, about which is better.

The International Space Station (ISS) most important legacy may be
jump-starting space tourism. Consider: the first space tourist, Dennis
Tito, was supposed to go to the Soviet era Mir space station. Under
pressure from NASA, Russia de-orbited the Mir which resulted in Mr. Tito
going to the ISS instead. Now the Mir was old, smelly, crowded and
probably not all that nice. The ISS was brand new, shinny, much more
roomy, etc. Mr. Tito came back to Earth with glowing accounts of how
great space is. Would his experience have been as good on Mir?

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

Now I'm confused :-)

Since a person in an industrialized society can supposedly take time off
with pay when they get sick/ not feel well, (as you do) then why all the ads
and products supposedly designed to allow a person to work while they ARE
sick, by minimizing the symptoms, i.e. muscle pains, coughing, headaches,
sleeplessness, sneezing, coughing, runny nose, etc. ?

Then there are the pain pills and salves that seem to address the common
aches and pains of workers EVERYDAY, pains they get from performing their
work and allowing them to CONTINUE working even though they are in
pain....yes? Allergy potions, Prep H, bunion creams, acid reflex,
heartburn, skin irritations, etc. also part of these snake-oil treatment for
daily use. Biggest thing is the dropping down of prescription strength to
"over the counter" to meet market needs.

If the common industrialized person could just lay in bed to convalesce
instead of fighting symptoms on their feet at work, if they could be assured
of no negative action, no risk to their lifestyle, then why endure the
discomfort?

WHY?

:-)

I daresay that a few higher echelon folks may have some leeway in this
category (just as a chiefton would in days of old) But the common "herder",
person in the trenches does not have that luxury, or at least feel that they
shouldn't regularly avail themselves of sick day opportunities.

In a carefully balanced space station, could there be extra people figured
in to cover sick days? Would not each person work quota be even more
critically inspected? On Earth you can at least breathe for free. In a Space
station where everything is manufactured, everything would have a relative
high cost associated and a return needed in productivity.

But that really isnt my concern...

the point is how does one design and set up the new environment when one
STILL doesnt have a working knowledge of what is biologically needed (much
less pyscologically or "spiritually" needed) to be changing the basic eons
old environment of people.

As simple as turning off and on "daylight" and deciding the intensity of
same is far deeper than anyone I know can evaluate at this time.

No one considered the importance of actual daylight after incandescent
lights came on the scene. Now we suddenly discover that intensity, color
spectrum and more can seriously affect performance. Who can not feel the
sickly aura of the office in the movie, "Joe vs. the Volcano" with meg ryan
and tom hanks. We laugh at that. But when did we actually acknowledge the
danger of artificial lights?

I have TONS of research and stats if you please regarding trace elements in
food, etc. One of my favorites is the diet of 803 NY schools over a period
of time in regard to BHT, a common "safe" additive.

Below are just a few of the research sites on additives, food coloring and
such, (not even basic nutrition) and its links to some pretty heavy
"inconveniences" such as touretts syndrome, autism and others...

We can do wonders to birth a baby against the odds, but then later poison it
slowly making it suffer.

Article titles in color are linked to their MedLine Abstracts

a.. ADD/ADHD
a.. Allergy
a.. Asthma
a.. Autism/PDD/Asperger's
a.. Bedwetting (Enuresis)
a.. Conduct Disorder
a.. Depression
a.. Earaches
a.. Eczema, Hives, Urticaria
a.. Eye Problems
a.. G6PD Enzyme Deficiency
a.. GI Problems
a.. Headache, Migraine
a.. Learning Difficulties
a.. Movement Disorder/Tics
a.. Nasal Polyps
a.. Schoolwork Problems
a.. Seizures
a.. Skin Problems
a.. Sleep
a.. Stomachache
a.. Tourette Syndrome
a.. Urinary Problems
a.. Urticaria

MORE Information on: a.. Reviews - ADHD Treatments
a.. Aspartame
a.. BHT/BHA/TBHQ
a.. Fluoride
a.. Food Dyes & Flavorings
a.. Fragrances & Perfumes
a.. MAO & Tyramine-free diet
a.. MSG
a.. Early Research - 1959-1975
a.. OCD - Trichotillomania (Pulling Out Eyelashes)
a.. Pollution, Toxins, etc.
a.. PST, Salicylate & Sulfation
a.. Ritalin and Heart Disease
a.. Cardiovascular Effects of Psychotropic Medications
a.. Thyroid

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:14 PM, panamabob wrote:

> the point is how does one design and set up the new environment when one
> STILL doesnt have a working knowledge of what is biologically needed
> (much
> less pyscologically or "spiritually" needed) to be changing the basic
> eons
> old environment of people.
>
> As simple as turning off and on "daylight" and deciding the intensity of
> same is far deeper than anyone I know can evaluate at this time.
>
People have adapted too, and thrived, in a variety of light regimes.
Consider the difference in sunlight experience between an Eskimo and
someone on the equator. Clearly, there is a lot of leaway in lighting
design.
The materials in one asteroid (the largest ) are sufficient to make
orbital space colonies with ~500 times the surface area of the Earth in
usable real estate. See http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/
for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

Both of these are natural light examples... we can state the suicidal
tendency of folks that do not have natural daylight. Even people in these
climes under natural conditions do OK until you get them working under
artificial lights that take away the intensity or spectrum.

The point is that all the aches and pains that have evolved in the last
hundred years or so of modern times are beset by modern tech that we did not
understand biological implications.

You saw the short list based on BHT and other unimportant additives to food.
There are OVER 8000 un natural additives in our foods now, that nobody
thought to be important... but oh, gosh, look at the reprocussions. Just add
Ritalin to the poor hyper kids physiology
and it will be ok, except that now he may have a heart attack, but thats ok,
we can introduce a pacemaker to regulate and steroids to strengthen his
heart and give him video games for he doesnt have the urge to play run
around and stress his chemically and high-teched new physiology...

As technology grows amazing things are possible in medicine, but these do
not address the growing cronic problems. And they have grown and are
outpacing the technicol marvels.

You cant have a solution till you have the data to ask the correct question.
Physiological questions have not been asked yet to the point they need to
be.

Doesnt it seem better to figure out the problems we have already created in
ignoring human physiology before compounding them and shrugging our shoulder
with the cavelier "we'll adopt" ?

Clearly there is NOT as much leeway as was once thought. Hey Marie Currie
died of old age, right?! Ooops

:-)

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 03:52 PM, panamabob wrote:

> Both of these are natural light examples... we can state the suicidal
> tendency of folks that do not have natural daylight. Even people in
> these
> climes under natural conditions do OK until you get them working under
> artificial lights that take away the intensity or spectrum.

I've never seen any data correlating time in artificial light and
suicide rate. It would be hard to eliminate confounding factors, but it
might be possible to gather good data on this one.

The International Space Station (ISS) most important legacy may be
jump-starting space tourism. Consider: the first space tourist, Dennis
Tito, was supposed to go to the Soviet era Mir space station. Under
pressure from NASA, Russia de-orbited the Mir which resulted in Mr. Tito
going to the ISS instead. Now the Mir was old, smelly, crowded and
probably not all that nice. The ISS was brand new, shinny, much more
roomy, etc. Mr. Tito came back to Earth with glowing accounts of how
great space is. Would his experience have been as good on Mir?

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

well not sure what contributing would be but when full spectrum day light
bright light was applied, within 24-48 hours was complete turn around in
emotional makeup of ALL patients.

Would suggest something, huh :-)

SO what about all the ads for ache and pain medications and continuous work
?

:-)

Do YOU feel great? Do you NOT have aches and pains like most westerners?
Are YOU satisfied your getting the nutrition you need for well being from
your diet/vitamin pills?

I would guess that if you do, then your not gonna know about anything else
or recognize it even with hard data. The anecdotal evidence is everywhere
:-)

From: "Al Globus"
To:
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [spacesettlers] Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

--- In spacesettlers, "panamabob" wrote:

> well not sure what contributing would be but when full spectrum
> day light bright light was applied, within 24-48 hours was
> complete turn around in emotional makeup of ALL patients.

And this was discovered how? By an Old Stone Age shaman, shaking a
bone? NO! By a New Age guru, shaking a crystal? NO! It was
discovered by those scientists. They found out what was wrong, and
they found out how to fix it.

> Would suggest something, huh :-)

It would suggest that all this talk about natural vs. artificial
light is irrelevent to the subject of space habitats, as EVERY
SINGLE SPACE HABITAT DESIGN I HAVE EVER SEEN includes oodles of
natural sunlight streaming in.

> SO what about all the ads for ache and pain medications and
> continuous work ?

Well, let me see:

Even if I'm not working, I don't really want a headache. Or
nausea. Or... but you get the idea. I don't like being sick,
whether or not I happen to be on the job at the time. And BTW, it
is not only the upper echelon guys who get sick leave.

> :-)

> Do YOU feel great? Do you NOT have aches and pains like most
> westerners?

Oh, I feel just awful. Actually, I only feel awful compared to a
perfect health that seldom if ever exists, pre-industrial,
industrial, post-industrial, what-have-you (but just wait 'till
nanomedecine kicks in). Then again, I don't have tuberculosis. I
don't have smallpox. Or polio. Or... but again, I think you get
the point. Even things like heart disease, lung cancer, even just
being fat, are more about what I choose to do than about some innate
evil of modern society. Modern Industrial Civilization (MIC)
doesn't MAKE me fat, it LETS me get fat. After all, the same MIC
that gives me Big Mac also gives me sushi and tofu (neither of which
my pre-MIC European ancestors had even heard of).

> Are YOU satisfied your getting the nutrition you need for well
> being from your diet/vitamin pills?

If I'm not, it's my own fault. After all, there's plenty of good,
nutritious food out there (thanks to modern agriculture).

> I would guess that if you do, then your not gonna know about
> anything else or recognize it even with hard data. The anecdotal
> evidence is everywhere

Anecdotal evidence isn't worth much. "My kid ate that red candy,
then he got an 'F' in math." And why should we think that he
wouldn't've gotten the same 'F' if he'd not eaten the candy?

> :-)

Xenophile (who has much to :-) about, living in MIC)

>I've never seen any data correlating time in artificial light and
>suicide rate. It would be hard to eliminate confounding factors, but it
>might be possible to gather good data on this one.

It's so rare that I get to bring my wimpy BS in Psychology to bear on this
website, I just couldn't resist.

Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) is a malady recognized by the American
Psychological Association in its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM
III). In plain terms, some people who suffer typical symptoms of clinical
depression (depressed energy, sleep problems, feelings of sadness) find a
noticeable increase in symptoms during the winter months. There is now
substantial published research indicating that persons with SAD can reduce
their symptoms, and their reliance on anti-depressive medications, by
exposure to sunlight, or to light generated by bulbs specifically designed
to mimic the wavelengths of visible sunlight. It is generally recognized in
the psychological/psychiatric community that many people, even those who do
not suffer clinical depression, experience subjective improvements in mood
when exposed to more sunlight (real or simulated) each day.

This finding was playfully used in the TV series Northern Exposure, where
the doctor had half the town running around wearing these battery-powered
visors shining artificial sunlight on their foreheads.

BTW in another fascinating experiment, researchers in the 1960s placed two
volunteers into a deep cavern for several months, carefully removing any
clues from up above about the time of day, and then recorded what the
natural sleep/wakefulness cycle the volunteers fell into. After several
teams of volunteers the researchers concluded that in the absence of
sunlight clues, people naturally fall into a 25 hour cycle, not the expected
24 hour day.

To answer Al's actual question, I don't know that suicide specifically has
been associated with sunlight deprivation. But clearly depression has, and
the links between depression and suicide are well established.

Brad Walsh

Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*

Ahhh!

Bruises on my forhead are getting really painful...

:-)

Alright, I give up. I'm obviously not communicating the concept correctly.

Truth be known it takes blind commitment and boldness to move ahead into the
unknown, and many folks suffer/die in the proess until some one eventually
gets a clue and changes things. But then humanity is "over there" now and
what's a few lives or discomfort in the overall progress, yes? :-)

Seamen shipping out for months died of mysterious scurvy

Most early new settlers to America never survived because they didn't plan,
figure out the process of food production.

Orientals centuries ago discovering that soy was bad unless it was fermented
(westerners haven't figured that one yet).

Doctors in Europe figuring out that there are more deaths WITH vaccinations
than without with good sanitation. (You ever wonder why a French drug
company would give all it's stores of vacine to America with impending doom
shadowing all western countries? hmmm)

Folks travelling in modern aircraft discovering that recirculated air with
offgasses gives headaches and general bad feelings as oppossed to less
efficient aircraft with fresh air intake...

That eating modern food somehow increases tooth decay and orthodontics
work..

That somehow, 803 NY schools that stood fast on no "red candy", (and other
artificial flavours colors and preservatives) somehow overcame low grades
and attention overall. After a few years the trend drifted back to old ways,
with (amazing) drop of grades and increase in behavior problems

:-)

One child eatting or not eating red candy may seem hardly conclusive but 803
schools with results ?

Whats does this all have to do with a Space station?

Ask the biosphere people how knowledgeable they really are ! Ask them if we
are ready for a self sufficient environment.

We havent figured out what we need HERE to be compounding the ignornance by
adding more variables.

Lets get to Space and terraform other potential worlds! But lets do it smart
and not by accident.

I myself am involved with testing of a biodigestor from UF that is being
designed for Mars flight. We're incorporating it into an eco tech community.
So I'm no luddite, but by the same token my University education has had
quite a turn-about after being exposed to those bone shaking shamans and
their advice on planting, health maintenance and more that seems to be more
on target and get results than the agro industries sponsored "food pyramid"
people.

;-)

I know its probably just coincidence, but since 1991 when I started paying a
little attention to "modern food", I have not had a headache, no "colds" or
strange "itches". It sure feels good. Makes me think a bit.

As far as making bad choices in modern food and getting sick beause of it
,,, doesnt that SAY something?

Why should eating food create a sick organism? Sounds like a design flaw to
me :-) And continuing to do it seems strange as well.

Lets incorporate a holistic attitude on designing new environments instead
of compounding mistakes...makes sense?

From: "Xenophile"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 12:59 AM
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Are Dusk and Dawn Obsolete?

OK Bob, I think we see.

There's so much we don't understand about the subtleties of human inputs and
health effects. I find a lot of common ground with you there.

But if you conclude from this that humankind shouldn't contemplate moving
off planet earth, until we can perfect our living condition here, I think
you'll have a fight on your hands with this discussion group. Imagine:

Sailors get mysterious scurvy on long ocean voyages--so they stay home for
centuries until medical science gets around to solving scurvy.

Settlers in the New World can't figure out the food cycles of their new
environment--so they pack up and go home end never try to find out what they
can do about it.

Let's hope those dreaming of orbital communities don't get paralysis from
those kinds of fears.

Westerners can't figure out about the enzymatic poison in unrefined
soybeans? Hunh? Tofu is made so as to leech out the dangerous chemical.
OK fellow Westerners, for anybody that hasn't heard, don't eat raw soybeans
off the plant--there's a metabolic poison in them.

And I'll fight your point about vaccines issue by issue--but let's not do it
here.

Yes, we should be talking about organic gardening in space, instead of
machine-generated oxygen and foods.

Yes, we should be planning on natural water and atmosphere cycles in space
settlements.

Yes, we should think along the lines of simulating earth's day/night cycles.

But let's also stop a second to sympathize with the engineers in this group
that would find the alternatives easier to plan for. You and I want a
natural environment for our colony. But we have to have the proof of need,
to demonstrate to them that it's worth the substantial cost to do things
naturally. Gather scientific research to bolster your claims, and present
it coolly and rationally (like I did the Seasonal Affective Disorder
research), and we should be able to carry the day.

Or rant, and your opinions will probably be dismissed.

Brad

The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:13 PM, panamabob wrote:

> The anecdotal evidence is everywhere
> :-)
>

The anecdotal evidence for a flat Earth is everywhere. That's not to
say that sunlight doesn't feel good -- I get out every time I can. It
does mean that the truth is often difficult to pin down, and that which
is 'obvious' is not always true.

With regard to space colonies, there are some huge engineering
trade-offs for artificial vs natural (through windows) light. This is
something we should really understand.

Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 09:59 PM, Xenophile wrote:

> EVERY
> SINGLE SPACE HABITAT DESIGN I HAVE EVER SEEN includes oodles of
> natural sunlight streaming in.
>

See http://people.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/papers/RNR-91-018/RNR-91-018.html
for one that doesn't.

The materials in one asteroid (the largest ) are sufficient to make
orbital space colonies with ~500 times the surface area of the Earth in
usable real estate. See http://lifesci3.arc.nasa.gov/SpaceSettlement/
for details.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html

On Tuesday, December 3, 2002, at 06:58 AM, panamabob wrote:

> Doctors in Europe figuring out that there are more deaths WITH
> vaccinations
> than without with good sanitation.

Do you have references on this? I'm not sure about other diseases, but
I have several friends who suffered from polio when young and limp
today. I don't know anyone who has been vaccinated who suffers from
polio, and I believe cases are essentially unheard of. Smallpox used to
kill huge numbers of people in massive epidemics. Vaccination
eliminated it from the natural world.

It is true that if most of the population is vaccinated, then the
unvaccinated are partially protected since epidemics can't get started,
and vaccines do kill a small fraction of those who take them. However,
two unvaccinated kids at my child's day care did get whooping cough a
few years ago. Fortunately, neither died.

The dinosaurs were destroyed by an asteroid because they weren't
space-faring. It's almost as if Gaia then thought "Well, dinosaurs
worked pretty well, but space-faring is necessary. Maybe I'll should
try mammals this time." Humanity is now developing systems to detect and
deflect asteroids, and could build orbital space colonies to spread
beyond Earth to insure life would survive a planetary catastrophe.

Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html