R. Menich says:
from Earth, along with other manufactured goods.
In the beginning, obviously, there will be no choice. But before long you
will have to make a transition; -a Weaning Period, if you will, -then it
gets awkward. You will be substituting high costs of infrastructure
development for the high costs of transport...
-and you will be further delaying the all-important Profits.
I submit that the bean counters with their 'cost-benefit analisis of
virtually everything' will force us to change our mentality* and our
preferred patterns of consumption. Virtually everything we use will be
subject to redesign. Aesthetics will be a design priority no doubt, but many
will detect an over-all cheapening, lowering, or at least an uncomfortable
'change' in their pre-conceptions of a futuristic "higher" standard of
living.
These relatively profitless "construction" and "weaning" phases could last
for a rather long time.
How do you , in the beginning, as Ian says: "teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea." ? How do you drum up Heinlein type discipline,
idealism, and probable sacrifice among qualified young people given the
materialism that prevails in our culture today?
[*] Re Mentality: -I am told that American scientists spent a great deal of
time and money developing
a ball point pen which could perform under
weightless conditions.
The Russians simply used pencils from the
outset.
[sorry about the pencil allusion :-]
Also, -Toilet paper is not heavy, but quite bulky, and not reusable,
recyclable, yes, ..... -eventually.]
-and you will need Lots of it. -[-Can't you just see employee training
sessions on the proper techniques
for frugal use.. ;-]
Bob H.
On Wednesday, July 9, 2003, at 09:35 AM, Bob Hardman wrote:
> the
> vast and endless sea." ? How do you drum up Heinlein type discipline,
> idealism, and probable sacrifice among qualified young people given the
> materialism that prevails in our culture today?
>
There are over 6 billion people on the planet. We only need a few
thousand to go initially. Simply select those with the properties you
want.
Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
Views expressed in this email are only my opinions and are not the
position of any organization I'm familiar with.
Since toilet paper has become a major issue in this list in recent times :-),
I'll give my humble contribution: there are alternatives to toilet paper.
Bidets, for instance. As far as I know, they are not that common in the
United States, but they are found in many, many residences here in Brazil,
and some doctors say that they substitute toilet papers with advantages...
On Wednesday 09 July 2003 13:35, Bob Hardman wrote:
(...)
> Also, -Toilet paper is not heavy, but quite bulky, and not reusable,
> recyclable, yes, ..... -eventually.]
> -and you will need Lots of it. -[-Can't you just see employee training
> sessions on the proper techniques
> for frugal use.. ;-]
>
> Bob H.
(...)
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "lucio@v..."
> Since toilet paper has become a major issue in this list in recent
times :-),
> I'll give my humble contribution: there are alternatives to toilet
paper.
> Bidets, for instance. As far as I know, they are not that common
in the
> United States, but they are found in many, many residences here in
Brazil,
> and some doctors say that they substitute toilet papers with
advantages...
>
> Lucio
permanently-manned space station would have to have lots of plants
to recycle the atmosphere and provide food. What about the inedible
parts of plants? There is one plant, one of the fastest-growing on
earth, whose fibres can be used to make naturally-white paper. You
might say that it grows like a weed, and has plenty of other uses as
well (oil for making plastics, pharmaceutical uses, etc). I don't
want to be too... ahem..."blunt" about it...
ed
>
> On Wednesday 09 July 2003 13:35, Bob Hardman wrote:
> (...)
> > Also, -Toilet paper is not heavy, but quite bulky, and not
reusable,
> > recyclable, yes, ..... -eventually.]
> > -and you will need Lots of it. -[-Can't you just see employee
training
On Friday, July 11, 2003, at 08:08 AM, Ed Minchau wrote:
> wrote:
>> Since toilet paper has become a major issue in this list in recent
> times :-),
>> I'll give my humble contribution: there are alternatives to toilet
> paper.
>> Bidets, for instance. As far as I know, they are not that common
> in the
>> United States, but they are found in many, many residences here in
> Brazil,
>> and some doctors say that they substitute toilet papers with
> advantages...
>>
>> Lucio
>
> And there are other alternatives as well. For instance: a
> permanently-manned space station would have to have lots of plants
> to recycle the atmosphere and provide food. What about the inedible
> parts of plants? There is one plant, one of the fastest-growing on
> earth, whose fibres can be used to make naturally-white paper. You
> might say that it grows like a weed, and has plenty of other uses as
> well (oil for making plastics, pharmaceutical uses, etc). I don't
> want to be too... ahem..."blunt" about it...
Smoking will be out in space colonies because of the air pollution.
However, brownies and spaggetti sauce work fine (if memory serves).
>
> ed
>
>>
>> On Wednesday 09 July 2003 13:35, Bob Hardman wrote:
>> (...)
>>> Also, -Toilet paper is not heavy, but quite bulky, and not
> reusable,
>>> recyclable, yes, ..... -eventually.]
>>> -and you will need Lots of it. -[-Can't you just see employee
> training
>>> sessions on the proper techniques
>>> for frugal use.. ;-]
>>>
>>> Bob H.
>> (...)
>
> Canada.
>
Space tourism could be our ticket to the stars. Save your pennies,
suborbital flights for $100,000 may start in 2005! See
http://www.spaceadventures.com/suborbital for details.
Al Globus
CSC at NASA Ames Research Center
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/~globus/home.html
Views expressed in this email are only my opinions and are not the
position of any organization I'm familiar with.
Ed Minchau wrote:
>permanently-manned space station would have to have lots of plants
>to recycle the atmosphere and provide food. What about the inedible
>parts of plants? There is one plant, one of the fastest-growing on
>earth, whose fibres can be used to make naturally-white paper. You
>might say that it grows like a weed, and has plenty of other uses as
>well (oil for making plastics, pharmaceutical uses, etc). I don't
>want to be too... ahem..."blunt" about it...
>
Gee, anyone would think you were talking about hemp or something. ;-)
Anyway; I think that there is a point here- growing stuff.
Based on my experiences when I visited Biosphere II and the Eden
Project, I don't think it's exactly rocket science to say that it would
be fairly straightforward to arrange for there to be a tropical climate;
one where basically chucking something over your left shoulder it would
grow.
So it seems to me that a wide range of plants would be sensible to be grown:
- hemp
- bananas
- rubber
- sunflower
- various fruits
- cocoa
- grapes
- nuts
- coconut
- grains
- legumes
- rice?
etc. etc.
>ed
>
--
-Ian
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the workers to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Okay, yes, i was referring to hemp, and lamely trying to make a joke
at the same time. My point wasn't specifically about hemp however:
I was trying to point out that no matter what is shipped up there,
it had better have at _least_ two uses. In the case of plants, as a
foodstuff, as a way of renewing the oxygen in the air, and for
textiles from the fibres. There isn't really any point in launching
toilet paper at $19 a sheet, not after the fisrt few months anyhow,
not when it is relatively easy to make your own.
strawberries, and dwarf wheat - i don't know how long i could live
without my PBJ.
:) ed
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Ian Woollard
wrote:
> Ed Minchau wrote:
>
> >And there are other alternatives as well. For instance: a
> >permanently-manned space station would have to have lots of
plants
> >to recycle the atmosphere and provide food. What about the
inedible
> >parts of plants? There is one plant, one of the fastest-growing
on
> >earth, whose fibres can be used to make naturally-white paper.
You
> >might say that it grows like a weed, and has plenty of other uses
as
> >well (oil for making plastics, pharmaceutical uses, etc). I
don't
> >want to be too... ahem..."blunt" about it...
> >
> Gee, anyone would think you were talking about hemp or
something. ;-)
>
> Anyway; I think that there is a point here- growing stuff.
>
> Based on my experiences when I visited Biosphere II and the Eden
> Project, I don't think it's exactly rocket science to say that it
would
> be fairly straightforward to arrange for there to be a tropical
climate;
> one where basically chucking something over your left shoulder it
would
> grow.
>
> So it seems to me that a wide range of plants would be sensible to
be grown:
>
> - hemp
> - bananas
> - rubber
> - sunflower
> - various fruits
> - cocoa
> - grapes
> - nuts
> - coconut
> - grains
> - legumes
> - rice?
> etc. etc.
>
> >ed
> >
> --
>
> -Ian
>
> "If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the workers to gather
wood,
> divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for
the
>Anyway; I think that there is a point here- growing stuff.
>
>Based on my experiences when I visited Biosphere II and the Eden
>Project, I don't think it's exactly rocket science to say that it would
>be fairly straightforward to arrange for there to be a tropical climate;
>one where basically chucking something over your left shoulder it would
>grow.
costs of bring SOIL up in sufficient quantities, with cost per pound being
an issue there too, especially considering the tons of topsoil needed for a
fully functioning biosphere.
At that time I proposed as an alternative that one need only bring up a
wheelbarrow full of compost, some earthworms, and a variety of seeds, and
combine these with the water, sunlight, and sand from crushed regolith that
are available up there, and let the natural processes work. But it would be
a gradual process of nurturing and stewardship, one that really hasn't been
tried in realistic conditions as far as I know.
Is anyone aware of any research toward effective soil formation in a sealed
atmosphere? One of the Biosphere scientists wrote an article about this,
suggesting that it was the poorly understood process of soil formation
within the sealed Biosphere that contributed to the CO2 imbalance that
ultimately wrecked the Biosphere experiment. That plus the cloudiest year
in recorded Arizona history.
It ought to be relatively easy to set up some research toward this end. I
even read on the SSI website that several folks have tried to create
simulated lunar regolith for engineering and scientific research. Anybody
know how much that stuff might cost, and where it might be available from?
Brad
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Walsh"
> I seem to remember a few months ago an exchange on this board
about the
> costs of bring SOIL up in sufficient quantities, with cost per
pound being
> an issue there too, especially considering the tons of topsoil
needed for a
> fully functioning biosphere.
>
> At that time I proposed as an alternative that one need only bring
up a
> wheelbarrow full of compost, some earthworms, and a variety of
seeds, and
> combine these with the water, sunlight, and sand from crushed
regolith that
> are available up there, and let the natural processes work. But
it would be
> a gradual process of nurturing and stewardship, one that really
hasn't been
> tried in realistic conditions as far as I know.
Habitat is completed. Rather, follow a critical path and start the
soil generation process from early in the construction process.
Construct a chamber, start your first lot, then feed all of the
compost from your construction workers into the chamber and grow
more soil. Do this for the 10-20 years that it takes to build your
Habitat and keep expanding the chamber.
Presto. Open the hatches to the new Habitat and transfer over all of
that rich, fertile soil.
TangoMan
>Construct a chamber, start your first lot, then feed all of the
>compost from your construction workers into the chamber and grow
>more soil. Do this for the 10-20 years that it takes to build your
>Habitat and keep expanding the chamber.
>
>Presto. Open the hatches to the new Habitat and transfer over all of
>that rich, fertile soil.
I'm glad folks are thinking about this problem.
The organic gardening writers describe composting in glowing, Gaia-laced
terms: "a natural process," "nature's preferred way," "completing the
cycle." What is not clear are things like gas exchange, the interaction
with nearby plants, etc. In other words we don't know just how well the
process would work in your sealed chamber.
Effective composting is an aerobic process. The organisms that do the job
most efficiently must have oxygen, otherwise the anaerobes take over and
your compost pile starts to smell like a latrine, and the end result doesn't
have near the nutritive value for plants. That's why you have to get out
there and turn your compost every month or so.
Now "night soil" (pure human waste) has some advantages for fertilizing
plants, but it's not the same as compost. Compost is mostly broken down
plant materials, with a proportion of animal waste, food waste, soil, and
the microbes and worms to cause the necessary changes. A plentiful supply
of oxygen will be necessary to get the proper chemicals at the end of the
process, and there may be other things involved too. That's why it's a sort
of chicken-or-egg problem with bringing soil up to an orbital colony.
There is an excellent book entirely on the internet about composting. I
just wish I could remember the title URL or author. But it and other
reference books describe the process as it is understood today. I was
hoping that somebody at some university has at least experimented with the
process in isolation. What will be needed is some kind of list of necessary
inputs, so we'll know better what has to be in that stinky chamber in space.
Brad
Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
Ed Minchau wrote:
>strawberries, and dwarf wheat - i don't know how long i could live
>without my PBJ.
>
Personally I'd ditch the peanuts and use some other kind of nut; sweet
almonds or hazelnuts or something; to make my 'peanut butter'. Peanuts
are atherosclerotic. Probably something bad happens in the roasting
process or something, but even though peanuts are high in
monounsaturated fats, I believe atleast one study has (surprisingly)
linked them to heart disease.
>:) ed
>
--
-Ian
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the workers to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Brad Walsh"
>
> >Construct a chamber, start your first lot, then feed all of the
> >compost from your construction workers into the chamber and grow
> >more soil. Do this for the 10-20 years that it takes to build your
> >Habitat and keep expanding the chamber.
> >
> >Presto. Open the hatches to the new Habitat and transfer over all
of
> >that rich, fertile soil.
>
> Tango:
>
> I'm glad folks are thinking about this problem.
>
> The organic gardening writers describe composting in glowing, Gaia-
laced
> terms: "a natural process," "nature's preferred way," "completing
the
> cycle." What is not clear are things like gas exchange, the
interaction
> with nearby plants, etc. In other words we don't know just how
well the
> process would work in your sealed chamber.
Thanks for the details necessary for the process. It's an area that
I have no familiarity with. It was very informative.
The critical point I wanted to make with my post was that the
planning for soil placement should take account of the long lead
time required to grow it and plan for it.
To cover x amount of square km of Habitat to a depth of x cm with
rich topsoil will require x m^3 and it grows with y inputs at a rate
of z cm^3 per day . . . .
Of course, the process would have to be engineered according to the
principles you laid out, and it would have to be monitored and
maintained.
Do you think it's doable?
TangoMan
>The critical point I wanted to make with my post was that the
>planning for soil placement should take account of the long lead
>time required to grow it and plan for it.
>Do you think it's doable?
I don't think anyone can say right now--the proper research hasn't been
done. I emailed the local organic gardening columnist and guru here in
Dallas, Howard Garrett, and he said he didn't see why not. But that's a
long way from showing that it can be done under controlled conditions. I'd
love to win the lottery so I could spend the rest of my life on this kind of
research. But I have developed this nasty habit of needing to eat and have
a roof over my head.
Brad