# 5415 bytango_dancer@... on June 21, 2004, 9:45 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Do you think that a Habitat will have a charge for ridding the waste
heat created by residents?
a surtax on your electricity usage? Or will they not attempt to
regulate this at all and provide the facilities as part of your
general taxes?
What if people don't care how much waste heat they generate because
they don't pay directly for the removal mechanisms? This would treat
waste heat as an economic externality. Think of greenhouse gases
here on Earth.
What, if anything, should be done?
TangoMan
# 5416 bydarren@... on June 21, 2004, 3:17 p.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
Greetings Tango,
that they will be adding a tax, everybody will generate heat, body heat
is an example and that will be directly proportional to mass and
metabolic rate, which will change moment to moment and is regulated by
lifestyle and even genetics. Trying to tax me more than you because my
mother and father had the wrong genes and I make more heat? I think it
would be hard but for mechanical systems? That could be done. The matter
of waste heat from power use would be related to the amount of power
generated (I know that is a given but needed to be stated), you could
work out the amount of heat by monitoring the amount of power generated
and if it's too hot, make less power (I know that isn't likely to happen
but depends on how you do it, make less because you need less, would
work). The more you generate the more heat you have to get rid of, so by
controlling the cost of power, you create an indirect tax, you could
have a sliding scale of electricity cost, the more you use the higher
the cost. Industry could get away from that by using the power outside
the "bio-sphere". By buying goods with a higher efficiency you lower
your overall usage and create less heat. Interesting question.
Darren B
From: victoriatangoman [mailto:tango_dancer@...]
Sent: Monday, 21 June 2004 7:45 PM
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [spacesettlers] Waste Heat Tax
Do you think that a Habitat will have a charge for ridding the waste
heat created by residents?
Will they charge a surtax on electrical appliances? Will they charge
a surtax on your electricity usage? Or will they not attempt to
regulate this at all and provide the facilities as part of your
general taxes?
What if people don't care how much waste heat they generate because
they don't pay directly for the removal mechanisms? This would treat
waste heat as an economic externality. Think of greenhouse gases
here on Earth.
What, if anything, should be done?
TangoMan
s/S=:HM/A!64339/rand7769756>
_____
# 5417 byrabrooks@... on June 22, 2004, 7:43 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "victoriatangoman"
wrote:
> Do you think that a Habitat will have a charge for ridding the waste
> heat created by residents?
>
> Will they charge a surtax on electrical appliances? Will they charge
> a surtax on your electricity usage? Or will they not attempt to
> regulate this at all and provide the facilities as part of your
> general taxes?
>
> What if people don't care how much waste heat they generate because
> they don't pay directly for the removal mechanisms? This would treat
> waste heat as an economic externality. Think of greenhouse gases
> here on Earth.
>
> What, if anything, should be done?
>
> TangoMan
big of a problem. But we can't tell until we build a few Habitats. I
expect them to be built before hand to get rid of waste heat easily.
How about the waste heat given off by people? Us warm-blooded types
generate some of our own. I figure all the waste heat sources will be
too complex to easily keep track of.
So I support a general tax until further information is gained.
Rick Brooks
# 5418 byisildurbane@... on July 9, 2004, 10:27 a.m.
Member since 2021-10-03
I think I've mentioned this in passing elsewhere, but I really don't
think waste heat will be an issue. It in fact can be converted into
usable energy via heat engines. I'll throw some numbers around this
time to hopefully illustrate what I mean.
differentials. The efficiency approaches
H - C / H x 100%
where
H = temperature on the hot side
C = temperature on the cold side
(Carnot Cycle)
In order to maximize efficiency one must maximize the temperature
differential. If we assume the "hot" side is a comfortable 73f, the
cold side must be colder.
The only way to get rid of heat in space is to radiate the excess.
The power radiated is given as
e*o*A(T^4-Tc^4)
where
e = emissivity
A = radiating area
T = temperature of the radiator
Tc = temperature of surroundings (which I think is 4 deg K in space).
o is Stefan's constant of 5.6703*10^-8 watts/m^2 K^4.
Now I suck at math and using the calculator at the hyperphysics
website is a temptation I can't resist.
Let's assume the cold side of our heat engine is designed to run at -
150f. This gives an efficiency of 295K(73f)-172K(-150f)/295K = 42%
max. The radiator will be radiating at -150f. Assuming an emissivity
of .5 (I have no idea how to find it.) the radiator will radiate 25
watts per square meter almost 10 watts would be usable to the
habitat. Of course the radiator will have to be large to be usable.
(ok really large.)
What happens if the habitat generates more heat than the radiator
will radiate? Say the station is generating so much heat that the
cold side of the heat engine increases by 25 degrees. That would make
the efficiency go down to 36% and increase the power coming off the
radiators to 34 watts, 13 watts being usable to the habitat. More
heat is radiated and more power is produced, a win-win for everyone.
Think of this as a way to recycle "waste" heat.
Joe
Source:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html
--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "victoriatangoman"
wrote:
> Do you think that a Habitat will have a charge for ridding the
waste
> heat created by residents?
>
> Will they charge a surtax on electrical appliances? Will they
charge
> a surtax on your electricity usage? Or will they not attempt to
> regulate this at all and provide the facilities as part of your
> general taxes?
>
> What if people don't care how much waste heat they generate because
> they don't pay directly for the removal mechanisms? This would
treat