# 14286 byRavenart@... on Feb. 23, 2001, 10:56 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
I read this article today about the space program in China. (posted below)
Solar Power plants in space. With a billion people and a push to expand its
economy, China (and India) will certainly need more clean and cheap power.
What if we somehow (and I'm no expert on international relations) make China
aware of the adventage of building solar plants and Island Ones as near term
solution to their need for space and engery? If they actually put money in
it and tell the world their timetable to build both plants and colony, just
the idea might be enough to give United States a good swift kick in the pants
and make them quit the missle shield bs and to build their own solar plants
themselves. In this respect, peaceful competition in proving who's better at
providing the better life for people could be a win-win for all.
Carl
<
BEIJING (Feb. 8) - China plans to build several more of its Shenzhou space
capsules over the next five years as it moves toward putting its first
astronauts in space ''early in this century,'' state media said Wednesday.
Last month's successful second test flight of an unmanned capsule
demonstrated the high level of technology already achieved by China's
nine-year-old manned space program, the government-run People's Daily
newspaper said.
''Using the historical breakthroughs in space flight technology, China will
ultimately send astronauts into space early in this century,'' the newspaper
said.
China aims to join Russia and the United States as only the third nation to
put a human in space. Beijing sees manned space flight as key to building
international prestige and proving the Communist Party's ability to transform
China into a modern power.
China offers only rare glimpses into its secretive space program, which has
strong ties to the military. The first launch of a Shenzhou capsule in
November 1999 was not announced until the unmanned craft had safely returned
to Earth.
The People's Daily quoted Hu Hongfu, deputy general manager of China
Aerospace Science and Technology Corp., as saying several more test flights
will be needed to guarantee the capsule's safety before a manned flight would
be attempted.
China Aerospace Science and Technology, a large government-owned defense
contractor, will build the capsules and the powerful Long March rockets used
to hurl them into space, the newspaper said.
Shenzhou - which means ''sacred vessel'' - is designed to hold up to three
astronauts. Chinese news reports said that on its second test, a six-day
flight that began Jan. 10, the capsule carried cell and tissue samples from
dozens of animals, plants and micro-organisms.
The People's Daily also said China plans to step up the pace of satellite
launches, putting 30 communications, weather and research satellites into
orbit over the next five years, almost three times as many as since 1996.
AP-NY-02-07-01 0350EST
Copyright 2001 The Associated Press.>>
# 14287 byCharles Radley on Feb. 25, 2001, 10:36 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> Solar Power plants in space. With a billion people and a push to expand its
> economy, China (and India) will certainly need more clean and cheap power.
emission from the Kyoto treaty.
> What if we somehow (and I'm no expert on international relations) make China
> aware of the adventage of building solar plants and Island Ones as near term
> solution to their need for space and engery?
How do you propose to do that ? What are the advantages to them versus
nuclear and fossil fuels ?
What are the advantages versus other alternative energy sources ?
What makes you think they would be more receptive to the idea than more
developed western countries ?
BTW recent articles suggest that of all the world, North America will be
the LEAST affected by global warming,
and hence might have the least incentive to develop alternative energy
sources.
I am not sure who would be the most affected.
============
PS:- The cheapest alternative energy source is wind power.
I recently learned that there is a singificant hidden cost to wind power
-
there is a pretty major potential safety risk. If a blade becomes
detached it can travel for
a kilometre in distance and slice a truck in half. So windmill farms
will need at least
a kilometre safety zone, and cannot be colocated with human habitations.
A major operating cost for wind farms is maintenance and frequent safety
inspections to
detect cracks in the blades.
Shop online without a credit card
http://www.rocketcash.com
# 14288 byMitchell E. James on Feb. 25, 2001, 1:10 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
BTW recent articles suggest that of all the world, North America will be
the LEAST affected by global warming,
and hence might have the least incentive to develop alternative energy
sources.
I am not sure who would be the most affected. Those island nations that are going to be underwater including Bangladesh will certainly think that they are being affected the most.
Mitch
# 14289 byThomasKalbfus@... on Feb. 25, 2001, 2:11 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
In a message dated 2/25/01 12:08:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cfrjlr@... writes:
nuclear and fossil fuels ?
What are the advantages versus other alternative energy sources ?
What makes you think they would be more receptive to the idea than more
developed western countries ?
BTW recent articles suggest that of all the world, North America will be
the LEAST affected by global warming,
and hence might have the least incentive to develop alternative energy
sources.
I am not sure who would be the most affected.
>>
Yet we'll likely be the most affected by Arab terrorism which we fund
everytime we fill up our gas tanks, I think that is the biggest argument for
alternative fuels. Petrolium is inherently terroristic since most of it
resides where terrorists live, and when they aren't terrorists, they are
inherently anti-American bigots, they are quick to sympathise with their
former Enemies in Iraq and quick to discount the contributions of American
Soldiers in the Persian Gulf War. They went to allot of trouble to segregate
their population from American Soldiers, and were most uncooperative in
investigating the truck explosion at the American Air Force bunker. If they
insist on treating Americans like negros in the old South circa 1950's, then
it would be worth it to switch to alternate sources of energy.
Tom Kalbfus
# 14290 byCharles Radley on Feb. 25, 2001, 2:16 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> > BTW recent articles suggest that of all the world, North America
> > will be
> > the LEAST affected by global warming,
> > and hence might have the least incentive to develop alternative
> > energy
> > sources.
> >
> > I am not sure who would be the most affected.
>
> Those island nations that are going to be underwater including
> Bangladesh will certainly think that they are being affected the most.
>
of global warming, and not necessarily the first to happen.
Shifting climate zones resulting regional changes to climate, e.g.
rainfall, will have several other effects:
1) devastation to agriculture in some continents. In North America the
shifting of the fertile region will not cause a nett loss in arable land
area, and might even improve it somewhat. Canada's arable land will
increase, the USA's will decrease. But on other continents, there will
be a significant decline in agriculturally useful land area.
2) increase in disease due to increase in insect populations in many
regions
3) increased desertification (a variation of 1 above)
4) reduction in water supply, more droughts, in some regions
Unfortunately, many of these effects a subtle and gradual, and not
easily linked to global warming.
Also, they will happen in parts of the worlkd which are msotly
developig, without the technology or wealth to solve the problem. And
the people with the wealth and technology do not have much incentive.
Bungladesh is certainly in no position to build solar power satellites,
or even wind farms for that matter.
And your average western investor or taxpayer probably could not even
find Bungladesh on a map, and would not notice if it disappeared.
Shop online without a credit card
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# 14291 byCharles Radley on Feb. 25, 2001, 2:28 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> Yet we'll likely be the most affected by Arab terrorism which we fund
> everytime we fill up our gas tanks, I think that is the biggest argument for
> alternative fuels. Petrolium is inherently terroristic since most of it
> resides where terrorists live, and when they aren't terrorists, they are
> inherently anti-American bigots, they are quick to sympathise with their
> former Enemies in Iraq and quick to discount the contributions of American
region, making themselves vulnerable to political blackmail. This is a
strong case to develop alternatives.
Interestingly, the Gulf States were vocal opponents to the Kyoto Treaty,
demanding compensation for lost oil revenues. They recognize that
reduced dependency on oil will devastate their economy, relegating them
to the same status as Bungladesh.
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# 14292 byRaven on Feb. 25, 2001, 3:23 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
[Global warming]
> I am not sure who would be the most affected.
Try Bangladesh, and also some South Sea island nations.
> I recently learned that there is a singificant hidden cost to wind
> power - there is a pretty major potential safety risk. If a blade
> becomes detached it can travel for a kilometre in distance and
> slice a truck in half. So windmill farms will need at least
> a kilometre safety zone, and cannot be colocated with human
> habitations.
I assure you that this is not a big issue in Denmark, which has
relatively many windmills. People complain that they are eyesores and
noisy, and in some places interfere with wildlife - same as with any
other big construction projects. I cannot remember the last time
someone was worried that a blade might transfix Baby's bedroom. I also
cannot remember the last time the news told about a blade that came off.
It certainly happens far more frequently that a truck drives off the
road and squashes the bed in the bedroom on an evening when the
inhabitants stayed up late for a change to watch TV, stuff like that.
Jon L. Beck.
# 14293 byBill on Feb. 25, 2001, 4:24 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
This presupposes that the ice caps will melt. I have scene several
scenerios where an ice age is trigger because of 'global warming'.
What happens is the increase albedo from the clouds reflect sunlight
away. This lowers the overall surface temperatures except in the 30-45
degree latitude area because of convection of the atmospheres. The
result is higher precipitation in the higher latitudes, and colder
temperatures there as well.
# 14294 byBill on Feb. 25, 2001, 4:34 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
I wouldn't speak to loudly about Arab terrorism as an American. It is
very well known that the U.S is the biggest source of money for
terrorists in the world. And I'm not talking about CIA money, I'm
talking about private individuals providing funds to support
terrorism.
pertoleum you start with the car, specifically the the internal
combustion engine.
Research must be put into building better engines. There are several
options, but the easiest one is to develop a internal combustion
engine that runs on methane with a decent power output. Once you have
this engine in the cars of the nation you can cut dependency on oil by
switching to methane. Large scale methane production from coal
gasification is just around the corner once the demand appears. Guess
who has the largest reserves of Coal in the world?
If you don't like methane, try electric motors. The point is the
process of weening off of petroluem is not simple.
Bill
>
> I am not sure who would be the most affected.
> >>
> Yet we'll likely be the most affected by Arab terrorism which we
fund
> everytime we fill up our gas tanks, I think that is the biggest
argument for
> alternative fuels. Petrolium is inherently terroristic since most of
it
> resides where terrorists live, and when they aren't terrorists, they
are
> inherently anti-American bigots, they are quick to sympathise with
their
> former Enemies in Iraq and quick to discount the contributions of
American
> Soldiers in the Persian Gulf War. They went to allot of trouble to
segregate
> their population from American Soldiers, and were most uncooperative
in
> investigating the truck explosion at the American Air Force bunker.
If they
> insist on treating Americans like negros in the old South circa
1950's, then
# 14295 byThomasKalbfus@... on Feb. 25, 2001, 10:39 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
In a message dated 2/25/01 5:38:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
qwerty172@... writes:
very well known that the U.S is the biggest source of money for
terrorists in the world. And I'm not talking about CIA money, I'm
talking about private individuals providing funds to support
terrorism. >>
Guess who made Bin Lauden a Billionaire? We did, we bought his petrolium and
he took the money and blew up two US embassies.
<< On the real subject, If you want to eliminate your dependence on
pertoleum you start with the car, specifically the the internal
combustion engine.
Research must be put into building better engines. There are several
options, but the easiest one is to develop a internal combustion
engine that runs on methane with a decent power output. Once you have
this engine in the cars of the nation you can cut dependency on oil by
switching to methane. Large scale methane production from coal
gasification is just around the corner once the demand appears. Guess
who has the largest reserves of Coal in the world?
If you don't like methane, try electric motors. The point is the
process of weening off of petroluem is not simple.
Bill
>>
We could do it now, but we'd pay a very stiff price for it, its only a matter
of economics. I just get tired of depending upon a bunch of religious
fanatics for our energy supply. One good way to start would be to segregate
the oil supply. You know like Dolphin safe tune. How about nonarab oil. A
person could go to a gas station and use a pump that says, "This gasoline was
derived from non-Arab oil sources." or how about "Kosher Oil" for those Jews
that just hate Arabs and don't want to put any money in their pockets so they
can kill more Jews.
Tom Kalbfus
# 14296 byArthur Smith on Feb. 26, 2001, 10:58 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> This presupposes that the ice caps will melt. I have scene several
> scenerios where an ice age is trigger because of 'global warming'.
> What happens is the increase albedo from the clouds reflect sunlight
> away. This lowers the overall surface temperatures except in the 30-45
> degree latitude area because of convection of the atmospheres. The
> result is higher precipitation in the higher latitudes, and colder
> temperatures there as well.
calculations (and the fact that the 70's were unusually cold which
probably biased the scientists a little bit). But there is a very firm
consensus now that the net effect will be warming (the actual principle
effect will not be the warming, but more extremes of weather both hot
and cold, more El Nino's, hurricanes, etc), and the warming will be much
greater in the higher latitudes.
Arthur
# 14297 byBill on Feb. 26, 2001, 11:27 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> Bill
> >>
>
> We could do it now, but we'd pay a very stiff price for it, its only
a matter
> of economics. I just get tired of depending upon a bunch of
religious
> fanatics for our energy supply.
feel that strongly about it.
those Jews
> that just hate Arabs and don't want to put any money in their
pockets so they
> can kill more Jews.
Remeber, there were no Jews in the middle east 100 years ago, and the
fact they came in as conquerors supported by the most powerful
countries in the world, gives their enemies one more reason to shoot
at them.
Bill
# 14298 bycfrjlr@... on Feb. 26, 2001, 11:44 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
<<
> Bill
> >>
>
> We could do it now, but we'd pay a very stiff price for it, its only
a matter
> of economics. I just get tired of depending upon a bunch of
religious
> fanatics for our energy supply.
feel that strongly about it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
No I cannot, at least, if I did my standard of living would drop and I would become bankrupt, and my life would be very uncomfortable.
I hate using hydrocarbons, and I would much rather get my energy from renewable sources, especially SPS. But right now that is not an option for me.
I cannot afford the capital cost to make my house self sufficient in energy, so I rely completely on the supply of piped gas and electricity coming from the grid. Also, I cannot afford the cost of an electric car, there is no public transportation, and my job is too far to bicycle (about an hour by bike each way [with some pretty big hills along the way] - and I cannot carry equipment/shopping on a bike). So I am forced to commute every day in a car which uses hydrocarbons.
Right now I do not have the option to stop using oil and hydrocarbons, and I am fairly typical of the general population. Actually I am probably a bit wealthier than the median, and if I cannot afford the capital cost of conversion to renewables, then considerably more than 50% of the general population is in the same position.
It is up to society as a whole and the utility industries to make the conversion to renewables, not for individuals.
# 14299 byThomasKalbfus@... on Feb. 26, 2001, 4:38 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
In a message dated 2/26/01 12:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
qwerty172@... writes:
fact they came in as conquerors supported by the most powerful
countries in the world, gives their enemies one more reason to shoot
at them.
Bill
>>
Actually there were, just not as many as their are today. The mass migration
to Israel was prompted by the Holocaust, they simply wanted to live there.
The Arabs on the other hand did not want new neighbors that followed a
different religion than their own. The Arabs, by the way, were conquered by
the British long before the Jews arrived. The Arabs gave the Jews a hostile
reception a hostile reception and inter-ethnic conflict broke out. The Jews
were few in number and so were the Arabs, so it wasn't a question of conflict
over limited resources. The Arabs were simply intolerant. Now I believe that
both the Jews and the Arabs had a historical right to live there, just as
Native Americans have a right to live in North America. If the Arabs and Jews
could just manage to get along, there would be no worldwide reprecussions,
but being typically human bigots they started attacking the Jews.
This now takes us to the Truman Administration. It turns out that Franklin D.
Roosevelt was an antisemite, he knew about the holocaust a long time ago, but
chose to keep this information secret while all along turning away Jewish
refugees seeking assylum from Nazi Germany and causing the deaths of
thousands who were forced back into Germany. When Harry S. Truman became
aware of the past Administration's misdeeds, he chose to make amends and
supported a homeland for the Jews. The Arabs have been sponsoring attacks on
Jews for 53 years, and this war has taken precidence even over fighting
dictators like Sadaam Hussein, and developing business relationships with
neighboring countries. It seems the whole Arab world is overly concerned with
the Palistinians, even when those same Palistinians rallied around Sadaam
Hussien when he attacked Kuiwait and Saudi Arabia. That the Saudis are still
concerned with the plight of the Palistinians even after they sided with
their enemy just goes to show how demented they are. Frankly I tired of the
spoiled brat Palistinians who can do no wrong in the eyes of the Arab World.
The Arabs should just learn to live with the Israelis and thats that, they
should also learn to be more tollerant like Southern Whites have toward black
people and the rest of the world should stop making excuses for Arab bigoty.
People tend to look down on the Klu Klux Klan, but when it comes to Arabs,
they make allowances for them and continue to buy their oil. This is
excusible because Arabs are nonwhite, nonchristian and poor, if the were
Christian white Americans this sort of behavior would be looked down upon.
I'm open minded about alot of things, but I'm intollerant of intollerance. I
do not excuse Arab culture for their discrimination against women, nor for
their blind hatred of all Jews, and to a lesser extent Americans.
Tom Kalbfus
# 14300 byBill on Feb. 26, 2001, 8:45 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> Actually there were, just not as many as their are today. The mass
migration
the Ottoman empire was very similar to Nazi Germany. It was only after
the area became a protectorate of the British, that Jewish immigration
started.
>
> This now takes us to the Truman Administration. It turns out that
Franklin D.
> Roosevelt was an antisemite, he knew about the holocaust a long time
ago, but
> chose to keep this information secret while all along turning away
Jewish
> refugees seeking assylum from Nazi Germany and causing the deaths of
> thousands who were forced back into Germany. When Harry S. Truman
became
> aware of the past Administration's misdeeds, he chose to make amends
and
> supported a homeland for the Jews. The Arabs have been sponsoring
attacks on
So he gave away property he didn't own and displaced the group of
people that lived there.
> concerned with the plight of the Palistinians even after they sided
with
> their enemy just goes to show how demented they are. Frankly I tired
of the
> spoiled brat Palistinians who can do no wrong in the eyes of the
Arab World.
I personally am tired of the spoiled brat Jews who can do no wrong in
the eyes of the West.
> The Arabs should just learn to live with the Israelis and thats
that, they
Perhaps the Jews should learn to live with the Arabs.
> should also learn to be more tollerant like Southern Whites have
toward black
> people and the rest of the world should stop making excuses for Arab
bigoty.
When the Palistineans be allowed in an election in Isreal? When will
they be allowed to run for office. The Isreals are about as tolerant
as the South Africans, with many of the same policies.
> I'm open minded about alot of things, but I'm intollerant of
intollerance. I
No your not. You have chosen a side and are defending there actions
and are blind to there atrocities.
Bill