<< Remeber, there were no Jews in the middle east 100 years ago, and the
fact they came in as conquerors supported by the most powerful
countries in the world, gives their enemies one more reason to shoot
at them.

Bill >>

Bill,
Based on the recent 30 years of history, it's an easy mistake to make in
thinking the Jews entered their old homeland like conquerors. However, the
immigrantion from eastern Europe started in last 19th century with massive
sweep of killings that was supported by corrupt Czarist government. Faced
with general distaste (to put it mildly) by just about everybody in Europe,
they mostly move on to America, but few dreamers saw the turn of events as a
chanch to try building their dream of perfect secular socialist society in
which everybody share common property and there would be no war or hate and
social justice rule above all. So some went to what's now Israel.

The first settlers brought property from the arabs, who were more friendly
toward them back then. Thanks to their knowledge and eagerness and vision,
the Jews learn to make the farms work. With new cultural and economic
improvenment and a lot of monie from international jewish organizations, they
help make the place more attractive, and more arabs also moved to Holy Land
with hope for better life. With more people, both jews and arabs moving in,
the things got more touchy. They were both sezied with new nationist dreams
of independent jewish or arab nation, in which the respective people will be
united as one people. And the fact that both people want the same land
became a problem. Plus, there's a cultural conflict between more advanced
secular jews and country, tradition-bound arabs. So with this tension, the
early hope for peaceful conhabition of semtic people fazed in face of growing
conflict. That conflict reached new pitch when the Allies won the Great War,
and the Ottman Empire was divided between British and Freach Mandate who want
to keep their dying empires alive with a lot of sneaky deals. It was at this
time, that the powerful governments started getting involded and turn a
arguement into outright fighting with their ruthless polcies that do nobody a
favor. Then came the World War 2.

The botton line, the dream of peaceful and just society for all died and the
result was a cold war with hot flashes once in a while.

Carl

In a message dated 2/27/01 10:50:33 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Ravenart@... writes:

<< Plus, there's a cultural conflict between more advanced
secular jews and country, tradition-bound arabs. So with this tension, the
early hope for peaceful conhabition of semtic people fazed in face of
growing
conflict. That conflict reached new pitch when the Allies won the Great
War,
and the Ottman Empire was divided between British and Freach Mandate who
want
to keep their dying empires alive with a lot of sneaky deals. It was at
this
time, that the powerful governments started getting involded and turn a
arguement into outright fighting with their ruthless polcies that do nobody
a
favor. Then came the World War 2.

The botton line, the dream of peaceful and just society for all died and the
result was a cold war with hot flashes once in a while.

Carl >>

If they would just learn to tollerate each other, the mideast conflict would
be at an end. The idea of enshrining a religion in the state governing
apparatus is a bad idea. A solution would be to have a secular state and only
accept immigrant ethic groups in proportion to those ethnic groups that
already live there. Call it the State of Israel-Palistine, the Arabs would be
free to call it palistine and the Jews would be free to call it Israel.
People can then live where evr they want to without fear of molestation and
no legally segregated neighborhoods. Jews aren't persecuted much anymore
except in Arab states, and they don't need a homeland where they get
automatically accepted as immigrants. Israel-Palistine needs a secular
government where religon is kept separate and the government doesn't shove a
particular religion down someone's throught, the muslims in particular have
difficulty with this concept, their clerics seem to feel that it is their
divine right to govern and make laws for their people without getting elceted
by them, we must disabuse them of this notion.

Tom

I can't deny that I've found the discussions of the situationregarding the Jews and the Arabs personally interesting; but as others have said, let's please steer the discussion back toward SSI related subjects. Please bear in mind that any discussions or debates can always freely continue off-line via inter-personal E-mail.

Many Thanks,

Mike Combs
Moderator

> Carl >>
>
> If they would just learn to tollerate each other, the mideast
conflict would

It goes a little deeper than that. The Palestines are not citizens of
Isreal. They don't have voting rights. This was diliberately done,
because they are the clear majority of the population in the region.
If they were given voting rights the results would be handing over
power to the Palestines. This is what most Jews are afraid of in
Isreal. This is why they created these Palestinian States the way the
South Africans created the homelands for the blacks.

> be at an end. The idea of enshrining a religion in the state
governing
> apparatus is a bad idea. A solution would be to have a secular state
and only
> accept immigrant ethic groups in proportion to those ethnic groups
that
> already live there. Call it the State of Israel-Palistine, the Arabs
would be

Actually the above method is worse than you think. If that policy was
organized, the net affect would be to solidify the differences and
continue segregation.

Bill

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In a message dated 2/27/01 11:11:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
phoebos@... writes:

<< Middle Eastern politics are definitely a headache to us entrenched in
western philosophy. I suspect that there will never truly be peace in
that region. Religous fanaticism at its finest, rest assured.
>>

Sure there will. This problem has a solution and is just waiting for someone
with the guts to try it. The solution is to educate the Children to abandon
the hateful ways of their parents, and if the parents interfere they lose
custody of their children. If this succeeds then at least the children will
live to an old age rather than dying young as rock throwing martyrs or as
human bombs as their parents would like. This is admitedly an extreme
solution and politicians would prefer to fiddle and tinker around the edges
and while they do that people continue to die in terrorist attacks. The
original events that started the MidEast conflict occured in 1948. I see no
reason why the children of today have to suffer for the stupidities of the
past and if that means separating children from their parents, so be it.