I have been kicking around an idea for some time. I just signed up
to this group (I subscribed briefly a few weeks ago, but the traffic
was more than I could maintain). The following is just a rough
outline of the idea, but I was interested in getting some feedback
before pusuing the idea any further.

STARBOUND ALLIANCE (SBA)

There are millions of people who support a pro-active space program.
The problem is that these people are divided among hundreds of
diverse groups. Some of these groups focus on the politics of space
science research and activities (lobbying congress for more funds for
NASA, encouraging government funded space related research, etc.).
Others concentrate on the social and cultural implications of a space-
faring civilization, while still others hope to put their plan on the
front burner through a strong grass-roots effort. Some want to go to
L5, others to the Moon and still others want to colonize Mars. While
many of these groups share similar characteristics and desire the
same general end (space industrialization and colonization),
coordination and communication among them is sparse at best (some
speculate that the civil rights/peace movement of the 60's failed due
to the lack of communication and coordination between the various
groups).

Virtually all of the commercial space companies in existence today
could and would directly benefit from a commercial space station. The
same could be said of the space advocacy groups. Regardless of the
group's goals, a functional space station at their disposal from
which to launch their own projects would reduce the cost of that
project, simplify the logistics of that project, and be a step closer
to the goal(s) of that project. Ensuring cheap access to space and
building a functional space station from which to launch multiple
projects are two of the goals of StarBound Alliance (SBA).

It is obvious that most space advocacy groups would benefit by
forming an alliance with other groups. From the establishment of a
mining camp on the moon and NEOs to the further exploration and
eventual terraforming of the Red Planet, a significant reduction in
launch costs and a space station in LEO or L1 are THE stepping-stones
to further interplanetary and interstellar missions. Many pro-active
groups have just such a station as an initial or intermediate step in
their plan. The expense of establishing such an infrastructure,
however, renders most commercial space ventures impractical.

That brings us to a third goal of SBA. Most investors are looking for
a 3-5 year return on their investment, clearly impractical for
commercial space ventures. Almost all the plans researched and
developed so far by both private and public agencies and companies,
from Solar Power Satellites (SPS) to mining Luna and NEOs, require a
15-20 year time frame before the investment can be returned. Many
require much longer. SBA should dedicate a significant amount of its
resources to exploring and developing new and unique ways of raising
money.

As long as the cost of Earth surface to LEO transportation continues
to be several thousands of dollars per pound, you and I will have to
be content to seeing space from TV and postcards. Access to space
must be made affordable to small business to open up
commercialization and begin the greatest economic revolution ever
seen. I think we would all agree that the current space fleet used
to access LEO lacks the single most critical factor: cost-efficiency!

Wouldn't we all benefit from cheaper access to space?

And wouldn't cheaper access do more to help facilitate the beginning
of an infrastructure in LEO?

And wouldn't that infrastructure afford many others groups and
commercial space companies more opportunities?

Clearly the answer to all three questions is yes. SBA wouldn't be
just another space advocacy group. My goal is to get the varied space
advocacy groups that currently exist to come together, pool their
resources and progress in a common direction toward a goal agreed
upon by most if not all. I don't expect 100% agreement, but I think
most would agree that their interests could be better served by
joining such an alliance. There is strength in numbers. There is
strength in organization.

Let me add that I do not foresee perpetual existence for SBA. I would
want to set a date, say 20 years from today, when SBA would be
dissolved and all groups could then pursue their individual goals.

If anyone has any suggestions or any interest in helping me, please
let me know. I don't have a PhD in Aerospace Engineering, I don't own
my own space development company, and I am not rich. I just want to
do what I can to make space commerce common. All suggestions and
comments are welcomed and encouraged.

Jack

Do you recall the name of that thread? Preliminary search hasn't
returned anything, but I will continue looking. Thanks for the tip.

Jack

> By checking in and out you must have missed the discussion about
lift
> costs not being the problem with costs. You need to go back and
reread
> those threads.
> Mitchell James
>
> > STARBOUND ALLIANCE (SBA)
> >
> > And wouldn't cheaper access do more to help facilitate the
beginning

Could be. But there are a lot of assumptions there. People are low-value high-mass. I think that the relative costs of robotic vs manned missions would indicate otherwise. The only thing that we could relate a government run program for a powersat would be space station alpha for which we need a detailed cost breakdown to have an intelligent discussion about cost factors.
Mitchell James

"Huebner, Jay" wrote: The point was that lift costs were not that important for Comsats and maybe
other high-value and low-mass satellites, but for other potential
satellites, such as powersats, this certainly would not be true. I would
think launch costs would be very important for tourists and some of the
things they would want for their stays in space.
Sincerely, Jay S. Huebner at jhuebn@...

> The point was that lift costs were not that important for Comsats
and maybe
> other high-value and low-mass satellites, but for other potential
> satellites, such as powersats, this certainly would not be true. I
would
> think launch costs would be very important for tourists and some of
the
> things they would want for their stays in space.
> Sincerely, Jay S. Huebner at jhuebn@...

So far, the only real reference I can find is from John Wheeler:

"I've read conflicting analyses of what that cost is,but I think in
every case, the cost of LH/LOx fuel was less than$10/kg payload to
LEO. The rest of the tremendous Shuttle launchcosts are for employing
a veritable army of technicians and foramortizing the large capital
costs. (I forget the exact figure, butI've read that if the airlines
were run the way NASA runs the shuttle,the cost of a trip from New
York to Los Angeles would be somethinglike $100,000 to $1 million.)"

Some of the other email I have read seems to imply that the lack of a
market is what keeps launch costs high. The logic seems to be that
without a sustained market there would not be enough launches over
the life of the vehicle. I am probably incorrect in this, but I am
new and will continue digging.

I'll be stunned if the general consensus of this group is that launch
costs are irrelevant (or even less relevant to most other factors) to
the development of space resources. Perhaps I should pose these
questions directly:

Wouldn't we all benefit from cheaper access to space?

Wouldn't cheaper access do more to help facilitate the beginning of
an infrastructure in LEO?

Wouldn't that infrastructure afford many others groups and commercial
space companies more opportunities?

Jack

> > The point was that lift costs were not that important for Comsats
> and maybe
> > other high-value and low-mass satellites, but for other potential
> > satellites, such as powersats, this certainly would not be true.
I
> would
> > think launch costs would be very important for tourists and some
of
> the
> > things they would want for their stays in space.
> > Sincerely, Jay S. Huebner at jhuebn@...
>
> So far, the only real reference I can find is from John Wheeler:

If you'd like to go to my sources, I've found that

Halfway to Anywhere by G. Harry Stine and
Entering Space by Robert Zubrin

deal with these issues pretty well.

> "I've read conflicting analyses of what that cost is,but I think in
> every case, the cost of LH/LOx fuel was less than$10/kg payload to
> LEO. The rest of the tremendous Shuttle launchcosts are for
employing
> a veritable army of technicians and foramortizing the large capital
> costs. (I forget the exact figure, butI've read that if the airlines
> were run the way NASA runs the shuttle,the cost of a trip from New
> York to Los Angeles would be somethinglike $100,000 to $1 million.)"
>
> Some of the other email I have read seems to imply that the lack of
a market is what keeps launch costs high. The logic seems to be that
without a sustained market there would not be enough launches over the
life of the vehicle. I am probably incorrect in this, but I am new
and will continue digging. <

By my understanding, you are quite correct in this, except there also
is the problem of having to spend weeks rebuilding the Space Shuttle
between flights as opposed to hours maintaining a plane.

> I'll be stunned if the general consensus of this group is that
launch costs are irrelevant (or even less relevant to most other
factors) to the development of space resources.<

Let me make myself perfectly clear: FUEL costs are largely irrelevant
compared with other costs of launching spacecraft.

> Wouldn't we all benefit from cheaper access to space?

Yes.

> Wouldn't cheaper access do more to help facilitate the beginning of
an infrastructure in LEO? <

Yes.

> Wouldn't that infrastructure afford many others groups and
commercial space companies more opportunities? <

Yes.

The key is, you have to look at the bottom line, including the costs
of research and development, building the spacecraft, and maintaining
it between flights, (and fuel, but as it stands now, this is much less
than the other three costs) , divided by the amount of cargo lifted
over the lifetime of the spacecraft.

++JohnWheeler

<< Message: 1
Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:51:42 -0000

I have been kicking around an idea for some time. I just signed up
to this group (I subscribed briefly a few weeks ago, but the traffic
was more than I could maintain). The following is just a rough
outline of the idea, but I was interested in getting some feedback
before pusuing the idea any further.

If anyone has any suggestions or any interest in helping me, please
let me know. I don't have a PhD in Aerospace Engineering, I don't own
my own space development company, and I am not rich. I just want to
do what I can to make space commerce common. All suggestions and
comments are welcomed and encouraged.

Jack >>

Jack,

This is one of good ideas I have seen and there's a LOt out there.

Since I join the space colonization movenment few months back, I noticed that
the biggest problem is not Moon or Mars, LEO launch cost or such. It's
capital. So after thinking on it, I came up with few ideas that I want to
take to my National Space Society chapter in NYC.

1. Start an investment club within our chapter. Investment clubs require
little work (mainly studying the health of stocks and exchanging information
on making better money). Peter Lynch in "Beating the Street" pointed out
that the investment clubs beat the S&P Index by 20% on average. The reason
is simple, The funds are required by Securities rules to limit any large
holdings in particular stock to 4%, so they can't put as many money as they
like in stocks with excellent value. Also, the fund manager must manage
thousands of stocks listed on single spaced page the can fill 4 yellow pages,
so the best pickers just can't put in as much time into good research on
companies and must depends on growing stable of researcher who may or may not
be good. Investment clubs, on other hand, have no limits on putting money
into some favored stocks and all members study two or three stocks and report
on them at their monthy meetings.This way they can find stocks with great
value and pour as many money as they can in to those few stocks. Beside,
they also enjoy making new friends and teaching each other. An investment
club that invests money with long term goal of creating capital for space
colonization can help bring our future closer to today. Repeat the clubs many
times over and quite a lot of money can be created in few years.

2. Start a special space group for people in investment business. My NSS is
in NYC and I want to suggest create a special outreach to the bankers and
stock brokers so that they can be exposed to new ideas of using space
resources, and they are ALWAYs looking for ways to creating more assets.

3. Start the Near Earth Development Bank. Think about those special banks
that specialized in Far East or such, and you will have the model for our new
bank. This bank will formed by people with deep pockets and with deep
commitment to creating business in near earth space. They will be two groups
within. One will be the main money men who sit on board of directors and
second group will be tech-science experts who peer-review the business plans
for any flaw in science or engineering. The Bank will seperate the good from
bad before much money is wasted and they will provide the loans to good
companies to fund their plans

4. Capture a NEA and bring it into HEEO. This asteroid will provide many
things. First, it will be the first space colony from inside out in which
reasearch can be made in mining, manufacting and growing food. Second, It
will provide minerals for industralization. Three, it will be the first
space industral plant. Fourth, it will provide a goal for LEO ships to reach
to in same day, therefore increasing the pressure to build the first
successful flight. Fifth, it will provide a easy and cheap access to moon
thanks to it's outstreached orbit from few miles above earth at one point and
few miles from moon at other point. Lastly, it can become a traveling hotel
in manner of Savage's green asteroid.

Carl Mullin
www.ravenartstudio.com

One major goal of space manufacturing should be to
eventually out-produce earth-based industries in
manufacturing of materials and all other
heavy-industry based on earth. The idea of outer
space industries out producing most earth-based
industries could very easily become a reality, and
would without a doubt solve many problems on earth
itself, not to mention making outer space extremely
rich. If things work out well (in the way described
below), then this proposal could get anyone interested
in investing in outer space, because almost all
industrial and energy production will occur there. I
can imagine people leaving Earth simply because there
is so little money to be made there. Earth would
probably remain mostly agricultural, producing food
for the masses that benefit off of SSP and space
industry. Art and philosophy and some of the things
Gerard O'Neill proposed for a society without woes or
major scientific curiosities could occur, like
research into the workings of human consciousness.

On a side note, if space is controlled by Earth
governments it is very likely that these governments
would prohibit space industrialization to a certain
extent because of their fear space industry would
out-produce earth industry. Yet another reason why
space needs its own governing body.

>
> In a message dated 4/15/01 7:14:05 AM,
> ssi_list@... writes:
>
><< Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2001 14:51:42 -0000
>
> I have been kicking around an idea for some time. I
> just signed up
> to this group (I subscribed briefly a few weeks ago,
> but the traffic
> was more than I could maintain). The following is
> just a rough
> outline of the idea, but I was interested in getting
> some feedback
> before pusuing the idea any further.
>
> If anyone has any suggestions or any interest in
> helping me, please
> let me know. I don't have a PhD in Aerospace
> Engineering, I don't own
> my own space development company, and I am not rich.
> I just want to
> do what I can to make space commerce common. All
> suggestions and
> comments are welcomed and encouraged.
>
> Jack >>
>
> Jack,
>
> This is one of good ideas I have seen and there's a
> LOt out there.
>
> Since I join the space colonization movenment few
> months back, I noticed that
> the biggest problem is not Moon or Mars, LEO launch
> cost or such. It's
> capital. So after thinking on it, I came up with
> few ideas that I want to
> take to my National Space Society chapter in NYC.
>
> 1. Start an investment club within our chapter.
> Investment clubs require
> little work (mainly studying the health of stocks
> and exchanging information
> on making better money). Peter Lynch in "Beating
> the Street" pointed out
> that the investment clubs beat the S&P Index by 20%
> on average. The reason
> is simple, The funds are required by Securities
> rules to limit any large
> holdings in particular stock to 4%, so they can't
> put as many money as they
> like in stocks with excellent value. Also, the fund
> manager must manage
> thousands of stocks listed on single spaced page the
> can fill 4 yellow pages,
> so the best pickers just can't put in as much time
> into good research on
> companies and must depends on growing stable of
> researcher who may or may not
> be good. Investment clubs, on other hand, have no
> limits on putting money
> into some favored stocks and all members study two
> or three stocks and report
> on them at their monthy meetings.This way they can
> find stocks with great
> value and pour as many money as they can in to those
> few stocks. Beside,
> they also enjoy making new friends and teaching each
> other. An investment
> club that invests money with long term goal of
> creating capital for space
> colonization can help bring our future closer to
> today. Repeat the clubs many
> times over and quite a lot of money can be created
> in few years.
>
> 2. Start a special space group for people in
> investment business. My NSS is
> in NYC and I want to suggest create a special
> outreach to the bankers and
> stock brokers so that they can be exposed to new
> ideas of using space
> resources, and they are ALWAYs looking for ways to
> creating more assets.
>
> 3. Start the Near Earth Development Bank. Think
> about those special banks
> that specialized in Far East or such, and you will
> have the model for our new
> bank. This bank will formed by people with deep
> pockets and with deep
> commitment to creating business in near earth space.
> They will be two groups
> within. One will be the main money men who sit on
> board of directors and
> second group will be tech-science experts who
> peer-review the business plans
> for any flaw in science or engineering. The Bank
> will seperate the good from
> bad before much money is wasted and they will
> provide the loans to good
> companies to fund their plans
>
> 4. Capture a NEA and bring it into HEEO. This
> asteroid will provide many
> things. First, it will be the first space colony
> from inside out in which
> reasearch can be made in mining, manufacting and
> growing food. Second, It
> will provide minerals for industralization. Three,
> it will be the first
> space industral plant. Fourth, it will provide a
> goal for LEO ships to reach
> to in same day, therefore increasing the pressure to
> build the first
> successful flight. Fifth, it will provide a easy
> and cheap access to moon
> thanks to it's outstreached orbit from few miles
> above earth at one point and
> few miles from moon at other point. Lastly, it can
> become a traveling hotel
> in manner of Savage's green asteroid.
>
> Carl Mullin
>
www.ravenartstudio.com