Just a fluff question for everyone to ponder.

All of us on this list are space-nuts and I assume that we'd all
jump at the chance to live, work and settle in orbit, but knowing
that such a move would be analogous to frontier settlement in days
of old, with hardships and lack of creature comforts, could you
convince your spouses to come? How about your children? Could many
give up the favorite American sport of shopping? How about the lack
of traditional opportunities for children, e.g. music lessons,
organized sports, hanging out at the mall. Could your family be
persuaded to give up access to aunts, uncles, in-laws, grandparents,
etc. How about your teenage children giving up their current love?

Just some random musings.

TangoMan

TangoMan:

I suggest that you may be asking the wrong crowd. You're asking a bunch
of Westerners whose lives are already comfortable.

Suppose instead that you ask a woman from Liberia, who fears that her son
may have his hands amputated by local thugs. Or suppose you could ask
some starving sucker from North Korea. Or suppose even that you ask
someone from Cuba, or even Mexico. (Each year many people lose their
lives coming to this country from Cuba and Mexico. Some die in the heat
in shipping containers crossing the Mexican border. Others drown on
rafts from Cuba.)

Ron

"victoriatangoman victoriatangoman@... 01/14/03 03:52 PM

Just a fluff question for everyone to ponder.

All of us on this list are space-nuts and I assume that we'd all
jump at the chance to live, work and settle in orbit, but knowing
that such a move would be analogous to frontier settlement in days
of old, with hardships and lack of creature comforts, could you
convince your spouses to come? How about your children? Could many
give up the favorite American sport of shopping? How about the lack
of traditional opportunities for children, e.g. music lessons,
organized sports, hanging out at the mall. Could your family be
persuaded to give up access to aunts, uncles, in-laws, grandparents,
etc. How about your teenage children giving up their current love?

Just some random musings.

TangoMan

Message One serious problem for me is that the woman I married is extremely prone to dizziness. She can't even read while moving in a car. The two RPMs of a Bernal Sphere would most definitely do a number on her inner ear. I'm not even sure Island 3's much more sedate .5 RPMs would be OK for her. Of course the reason for wanting things like Islands 1-3 is so that the usual human needs with regard to shopping, sports, malls, etc. can be met. But I guess between here and there is going to be a stage of space development more akin to living on an offshore oil rig, and I suppose that was the era you're addressing your question to. But even then, I don't see a problem with music lessons for your kids. The instructor might even be back on Earth, and linked via video. As for leavingbehind relatives and sweethearts, of course it will be the same situation as when Europeans immigrated to the New World. Expect a correspondingly small percentage of the population to be willing to uproot and sever such connections. (But if we're talking High Frontier type settlement, as opposed to Mars settlement, the travel times for visits will be much less. Yet another advantage.) I am busily trying to infect my 6 year old daughter with the space adventure meme; whether it will take or not remains to be seen of course. Your question also prompts me to wonder how many Mars enthusiasts would be willing to live the rest of their lives inside pressurized modules on Mars if it came time to put up or shut up. I suspect they're thinking more about the terraformed Mars of the 24th Century than Mars as it will actually exist for the duration of their lifetimes. I suppose a critic could charge that I'm thinking more about Island One than the kinds of small pressurized modules which will be it for many decades, but I think it's at least somewhat more practical to pine for an era that might be several decades away rather than several centuries. But when people tell me that a brickwork habitat on Mars, or a lava tube on the moon, or a cave inside an asteroidis a perfectly practical proposal for colonization, I have to wonder if they've really thought through the implications of living without sunlight for the rest of their lives. Again, I wonder what decision they would really make if push came to shove. I'm glad O'Neill proposed a space settlement scenario which would still involve living in sunlight under normal gravity and with fairly traditional agriculture. If 1/10th as many people flock to Mars as Zubrin expects, many more times as many should be flocking to orbital settlements where they can live under much more Earthlike conditions, and be closer to kin and friends left on Earth.

Regards,

Mike Combs

Just a fluff question for everyone to ponder.

All of us on this list are space-nuts and I assume that we'd all
jump at the chance to live, work and settle in orbit, but knowing
that such a move would be analogous to frontier settlement in days
of old, with hardships and lack of creature comforts, could you
convince your spouses to come? How about your children? Could many
give up the favorite American sport of shopping? How about the lack
of traditional opportunities for children, e.g. music lessons,
organized sports, hanging out at the mall. Could your family be
persuaded to give up access to aunts, uncles, in-laws, grandparents,
etc. How about your teenage children giving up their current love?

Just some random musings.

TangoMan

of Westerners whose lives are already comfortable.

Suppose instead that you ask a woman from Liberia, who fears that her son
may have his hands amputated by local thugs. Or suppose you could ask
some starving sucker from North Korea. Or suppose even that you ask
someone from Cuba, or even Mexico. (Each year many people lose their
lives coming to this country from Cuba and Mexico. Some die in the heat
in shipping containers crossing the Mexican border. Others drown on
rafts from Cuba.) Maybe everybody here's already seen it, but this article very much ties in with the above: http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm

Regards,

Mike Combs

--- In ssi_list@... "Combs, Mike"
>
> I suggest that you may be asking the wrong crowd. You're asking
a bunch
> of Westerners whose lives are already comfortable.
>
> Suppose instead that you ask a woman from Liberia, who fears that
her son
> may have his hands amputated by local thugs. Or suppose you
could ask
> some starving sucker from North Korea. Or suppose even that you
ask
> someone from Cuba, or even Mexico. (Each year many people lose
their
> lives coming to this country from Cuba and Mexico. Some die in
the heat
> in shipping containers crossing the Mexican border. Others drown
on
> rafts from Cuba.)
>
> Maybe everybody here's already seen it, but this article very much
ties in
> with the above:
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Combs

Yes, I've seen the article on your website. In fact, it was in the
back of my mind as I pondered my question. Further, it was precisely
us Westerners that I was asking. How much sacrifice is the dream
worth? Is materialism a way of life that can't be shaken? Are family
ties unbreakable? Could a new family tree be started in orbit? Must
the meaning of our lives be valued against comfort and possessions
or does building a world, a society, being the founders of something
new, discovering a new way to live, being the vanguard of humanity,
do these compensate for the hardships? Could a better life be
fashioned in orbit, a new society borne, where your progeny would
enjoy wealth, privledge and knowledge unlike any found on Earth.
Does one think about the immediate and how does one weigh in the
intangibles in your own private calculus?

TangoMan

--- In ssi_list@... "Combs, Mike"
>
> I suggest that you may be asking the wrong crowd. You're asking
a bunch
> of Westerners whose lives are already comfortable.
>
> Suppose instead that you ask a woman from Liberia, who fears that
her son
> may have his hands amputated by local thugs. Or suppose you
could ask
> some starving sucker from North Korea. Or suppose even that you
ask
> someone from Cuba, or even Mexico. (Each year many people lose
their
> lives coming to this country from Cuba and Mexico. Some die in
the heat
> in shipping containers crossing the Mexican border. Others drown
on
> rafts from Cuba.)
>
> Maybe everybody here's already seen it, but this article very much
ties in
> with the above:
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Combs

Yes, I've seen the article on your website. In fact, it was in the
back of my mind as I pondered my question. Further, it was precisely
us Westerners that I was asking. How much sacrifice is the dream
worth? Is materialism a way of life that can't be shaken? Are family
ties unbreakable? Could a new family tree be started in orbit? Must
the meaning of our lives be valued against comfort and possessions
or does building a world, a society, being the founders of something
new, discovering a new way to live, being the vanguard of humanity,
do these compensate for the hardships? Could a better life be
fashioned in orbit, a new society borne, where your progeny would
enjoy wealth, privledge and knowledge unlike any found on Earth.
Does one think about the immediate and how does one weigh in the
intangibles in your own private calculus?

TangoMan

"It would be nice to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there".

Thanks, but I have 1+ acres next to a park with nature trails, good
schools for my kids, and in general, ideal suburban living. I'd love to
visit a space station or a Lunar base or a NEO or... . But I wouldn't
want to live there, at least not in the foreseeable future. In the
foreseeable future, living conditions off-Earth are likely to be cramped,
boring, noisy, dangerous, etc. I'm not giving up what I have to go live
in a tin can for the rest of my life, a life that could be cut short at
any moment by any of a million different possible malfunctions. I'm 39
years old, and I'll probably be at least 60 before the number of humans
living off Earth tops 1000. Even then, I expect living conditions will
be spartan.

I'll be old and senile by the time living conditions off Earth become
enjoyable enough to live there long-term.

Ron

"victoriatangoman victoriatangoman@... 01/14/03 05:22 PM

--- In ssi_list@... "Combs, Mike"
>
> I suggest that you may be asking the wrong crowd. You're asking
a bunch
> of Westerners whose lives are already comfortable.
>
> Suppose instead that you ask a woman from Liberia, who fears that
her son
> may have his hands amputated by local thugs. Or suppose you
could ask
> some starving sucker from North Korea. Or suppose even that you
ask
> someone from Cuba, or even Mexico. (Each year many people lose
their
> lives coming to this country from Cuba and Mexico. Some die in
the heat
> in shipping containers crossing the Mexican border. Others drown
on
> rafts from Cuba.)
>
> Maybe everybody here's already seen it, but this article very much
ties in
> with the above:
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm
> http://members.aol.com/oscarcombs/wannabe.htm>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Combs

Yes, I've seen the article on your website. In fact, it was in the
back of my mind as I pondered my question. Further, it was precisely
us Westerners that I was asking. How much sacrifice is the dream
worth? Is materialism a way of life that can't be shaken? Are family
ties unbreakable? Could a new family tree be started in orbit? Must
the meaning of our lives be valued against comfort and possessions
or does building a world, a society, being the founders of something
new, discovering a new way to live, being the vanguard of humanity,
do these compensate for the hardships? Could a better life be
fashioned in orbit, a new society borne, where your progeny would
enjoy wealth, privledge and knowledge unlike any found on Earth.
Does one think about the immediate and how does one weigh in the
intangibles in your own private calculus?

TangoMan

Although I agree with Mr. Combs viewpoints, I must point an unfortunate but
obvious catch-22 with this poor/have not/pioneer concept. There is no
space-going infrastructure in place that remotely compares to that that was
in place when Mr.Asimov's father bought his ticket. In fact, there were
countless generations of pioneers before him, and the only ones that
contributed to the advancement of sea travel were ones that could secure
hefty funding. I might add that it seems funding would be easier to obtain
from a monarchy than the current bureacracies, as only one or two people
needed convincing. So, the world's largest and most powerful economies are
the ones most able, and perhaps the only ones able, to develop this space
travel. And, unfortunately, these are the ones least likely to be interested
in funding the pioneering precisely because they are pampered. Hmmmm. Rather
sad for those of us privy to the pampered cultures who would glady sacrifice
their cush environment for the opportunity to pioneer. It sure doesn't look
like we'll see it within the next couple of lifetimes.

Unless, of course, we focus on what's really important, and it's not the
science, or L1 vs. LEO, or Robert Zubrin's plan vs. Battlestar Galactica
NASA plans. The real starting point is developing a public urge to go, to
sell the future bank rollers on the idea of advancing into space. Star Trek
and the like do not accomplish this... We need a marketing effort focused on
the public that puts this into everyday thoughts and conversation, that
makes it cool to be interested in these things instead of the geek image now
associated with it. Let's not kid ourselves... Pure pioneering spirit and
people with nothing to lose may have been useful fodder for colonization
efforts, but this was only possible after a long time and a great deal of
economic input by large business concerns, and some govermental input (often
the two were identical).

A final note: much of your time and money would be better spent hiring a
very good marketing firm and developing a long term plan to raise capital
and public awareness. Would Bill Gates go about achieving this goal by
spinning his wheels as we are? How about any other person or company that
has become successful? Fund raising is the key, and the public are our VC's.

Couple of thoughts...

Seems to me, we're not really being serious about our
long-term future in space if we're not addressing
social, cultural and community
requirements--especially provisions for raising
families--for life off world. It's a biological
imperative if we're ever going to cut the umbilical
cord tying us to the earth.

Also, many people don't care about space matters
because it's presented as something exclusive to
eggheads, rocket scientists and military. But I wonder
how many more "space nuts" would appear if they REALLY
and TRULY had a chance to travel/live in space
themselves? Maybe the mall wouldn't see quite as
fascinating any more...

And once you've got kids in space, then all those
other things like schools, music lessons, organized
sports, etc. will just naturally follow. Along with
natural instincts about protecting children that will
probably lead to better life support systems as well
as social support systems. Children and families have
always played an integral part in settling frontiers.

I'm not a scientist or expert of any sort, but I've
been a dedicated space activist for over 20 years
because I saw a vision of *communities* in
space--something I could understand and see a place
for myself in. I think the more people see an
opportunity for themselves, the more space nuts you
will find.

The only way to get more people in space is to get
more people in space! :-)

Cheers,
Brook

--- "victoriatangoman victoriatangoman@...