In the battles between unions and employers, it's likely that the
advantage will go to the employer when they can relocate factories
to more labor friendly locales, and conversely the advantage goes to
unions when labor mobility isn't a factor.
be unbreakable because there will be no substitute location or
workforce for the employers to consider.
Look at what's happened with IG metal in Germany, and the French
labor strikes; both have seen their power diminshed because of the
creation of the EU and the unions can no longer exert their
influence over the central government. Labor mobility has increased
within the EU to the detriment of the unions.
What are your thoughts?
TangoMan
Person A: "There's a leak in the airlock, help me please. Take that
bubblegum out of your mouth and stick it right here. Then hold it there
while I go get a more permanent fix!! Quick, or we're all gonna die !!"
laborer at my grade level is not permitted to work in excess of x hours
per week unless expressly authorized by the union representative, as
detailed in section x.x.x.d of... ".
Oh boy...
Ron
"victoriatangoman" victoriatangoman@...
07/08/03 07:44 PM
In the battles between unions and employers, it's likely that the
advantage will go to the employer when they can relocate factories
to more labor friendly locales, and conversely the advantage goes to
unions when labor mobility isn't a factor.
In the first few habitats, I wonder if the strength of unions will
be unbreakable because there will be no substitute location or
workforce for the employers to consider.
Look at what's happened with IG metal in Germany, and the French
labor strikes; both have seen their power diminshed because of the
creation of the EU and the unions can no longer exert their
influence over the central government. Labor mobility has increased
within the EU to the detriment of the unions.
What are your thoughts?
TangoMan
>Look at what's happened with IG metal in Germany, and the French
>labor strikes; both have seen their power diminshed because of the
>creation of the EU and the unions can no longer exert their
>influence over the central government. Labor mobility has increased
>within the EU to the detriment of the unions.
>
>What are your thoughts?
>
I think that unions are only strong where management is weak.
don't form, or don't act up if they do form.
>TangoMan
>
-Ian
"If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the workers to gather wood,
divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the
vast and endless sea." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
> Person A: "There's a leak in the airlock, help me please. Take
that
> bubblegum out of your mouth and stick it right here. Then hold
it there
> while I go get a more permanent fix!! Quick, or we're all gonna
die !!"
>
> Person B: "I'm sorry, but according to our union contract, a
skilled
> laborer at my grade level is not permitted to work in excess of x
hours
> per week unless expressly authorized by the union representative,
as
> detailed in section x.x.x.d of... ".
>
> Oh boy...
>
> Ron
> *******
Look how the French brought down a government in '95 that wanted to
institute pension reform to deal with the demographic mess that was
confronting the country.
Look how no one in the US leadership is taking any action on
actuarial reforms for Social Security.
I'm not advocating strong unions, I'm just wondering what people
think of the scenario.
A Habitat would probably be the ultimate company town, the workforce
would be the the ultimate captive market where everything that is
sold is channeled through a few outlets.
A disgruntled workforce could lead to trouble.
Before a full-fledged economy takes root, one that can absorb
workers laid off from various enterprises, a company may have
limited flexibility in dealing with low-performing personnel, or
even in redundant personnel. You're fired, and there's no other job
for you in the habitat. Pack up your family and get ready to go back
to Earth.
TangoMan
It seems to me that the work of the habitats would be
strictly white collar so both the idea of unions and
company towns seems a bit off the mark.
pattern already in place in the US. Here is the big
ones I can think of.
1) Government
2) Medical
3) Construction
4) Transportation
5) Education/daycare
6) Art, music, dining, recreation
Robotic manufacturing has reached a level of maturity
that will make most of the traditional blue collar
jobs obsolete. Due to the confines of a habitat it
would be extremely dangerous to have any serious
discontentment. A minimum level of capability (ie
prosperity) would have to be set and enforced.
- Thor
> It seems to me that the work of the habitats would be
> strictly white collar so both the idea of unions and
> company towns seems a bit off the mark.
>
> The biggest professions would probably follow the
> pattern already in place in the US. Here is the big
> ones I can think of.
1) Government = non-productive
2) Medical = support
3) Construction = non-exportable
4) Transportation = support
5) Education/daycare =support
6) Art, music, dining, recreation = entertainment
Government workers are heavily unionized. medical support workers
and hospital employess are too. Doctors may go that way in the HMO
model. Construction is heavily unionized when not faced with non--
union competition. It's basically grunt work, so will we be
importing workers at great cost to do grunt work?
As for transportation, ever hear of the Teamsters? Education is
usually represented by the the teachers unions in every district
I've ever heard of. As for the leisure industry, dishwashers,
waitresses, aerobics instructors, small bands of musicians, and
artists aren't really big income producers.
> Robotic manufacturing has reached a level of maturity
> that will make most of the traditional blue collar
> jobs obsolete.
Doesn't this kind of beg the question of why we'd even need the
white collar workers on-site. Couldn't they do their design and
oversite from earth and let the robots build them things. If so,
then why have a Habitat?
TangoMan
victoriatangoman wrote,
Doesn't this kind of beg the question of why we'd even need the
white collar workers on-site. Couldn't they do their design and
oversite from earth and let the robots build them things.
"
An interesting article on integrated human-machine systems is
http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0307/06robonaut/
"
'Spacewalk squad' joins humans and robots
"
Humans AND robots. Not just humans. Not just robots.
Ron
"victoriatangoman" victoriatangoman@...
07/09/03 06:04 PM
> It seems to me that the work of the habitats would be
> strictly white collar so both the idea of unions and
> company towns seems a bit off the mark.
>
> The biggest professions would probably follow the
> pattern already in place in the US. Here is the big
> ones I can think of.
I'n not so sure that your examples actually support your case.
1) Government = non-productive
2) Medical = support
3) Construction = non-exportable
4) Transportation = support
5) Education/daycare =support
6) Art, music, dining, recreation = entertainment
Government workers are heavily unionized. medical support workers
and hospital employess are too. Doctors may go that way in the HMO
model. Construction is heavily unionized when not faced with non--
union competition. It's basically grunt work, so will we be
importing workers at great cost to do grunt work?
As for transportation, ever hear of the Teamsters? Education is
usually represented by the the teachers unions in every district
I've ever heard of. As for the leisure industry, dishwashers,
waitresses, aerobics instructors, small bands of musicians, and
artists aren't really big income producers.
> Robotic manufacturing has reached a level of maturity
> that will make most of the traditional blue collar
> jobs obsolete.
Doesn't this kind of beg the question of why we'd even need the
white collar workers on-site. Couldn't they do their design and
oversite from earth and let the robots build them things. If so,
then why have a Habitat?
TangoMan
> An interesting article on integrated human-machine systems is
> http://www.spaceflightnow.com/news/n0307/06robonaut/
> "
> 'Spacewalk squad' joins humans and robots
> "
>
> Humans AND robots. Not just humans. Not just robots.
>
> Ron
> *******
TangoMan
> It seems to me that the work of the habitats would
> be
> strictly white collar so both the idea of unions and
> company towns seems a bit off the mark.
>
> The biggest professions would probably follow the
> pattern already in place in the US. Here is the big
> ones I can think of.
>
> 1) Government
> 2) Medical
> 3) Construction
> 4) Transportation
> 5) Education/daycare
> 6) Art, music, dining, recreation
>
> Robotic manufacturing has reached a level of
> maturity
> that will make most of the traditional blue collar
> jobs obsolete. Due to the confines of a habitat it
> would be extremely dangerous to have any serious
> discontentment. A minimum level of capability (ie
> prosperity) would have to be set and enforced.
>
> - Thor
>
> --- victoriatangoman victoriatangoman@...
> > --- In ssi_list@... rmenich@...
> > > Person A: "There's a leak in the airlock, help
> > me please. Take
> > that
> > > bubblegum out of your mouth and stick it right
> > here. Then hold
> > it there
> > > while I go get a more permanent fix!! Quick,
> or
> > we're all gonna
> > die !!"
> > >
> > > Person B: "I'm sorry, but according to our
> union
> > contract, a
> > skilled
> > > laborer at my grade level is not permitted to
> work
> > in excess of x
> > hours
> > > per week unless expressly authorized by the
> union
> > representative,
> > as
> > > detailed in section x.x.x.d of... ".
> > >
> > > Oh boy...
> > >
> > > Ron
> > > *******
> >
> > Never underestimate the stupidity and
> > short-sightedness of people.
> > Look how the French brought down a government in
> '95
> > that wanted to
> > institute pension reform to deal with the
> > demographic mess that was
> > confronting the country.
> >
> > Look how no one in the US leadership is taking any
> > action on
> > actuarial reforms for Social Security.
> >
> > I'm not advocating strong unions, I'm just
> wondering
> > what people
> > think of the scenario.
> >
> > A Habitat would probably be the ultimate company
> > town, the workforce
> > would be the the ultimate captive market where
> > everything that is
> > sold is channeled through a few outlets.
> >
SOME COMPANY TOWNS WORK PRETTY DAMN WELL. CHECK OUT
THE ARABIAN AMERICAN OIL COMPANY, CIRCA 1937 TO ABOUT
1980. AVERAGE I.Q. OF WORKERS AND OFFSPRING WAS OVER
120. EMPLOYEES NEGOTIATED THEIR WORK CONTRACTS EVERY
COUPLE OF YEARS. MY FATHER WORKED FOR ARAMCO FROM 1947
TO 1972. I WORKED THERE FROM 1978 TO 1980. THE SCHOOLS
WERE AMONG THE BEST IN THE WORLD, PERSONAL INCOME AND
HOUSING EXCEEDED THE 90TH PERCENTILE IN THE U.S. IT
WASN'T PARADISE, BUT IT WAS FUN AND LUCRATIVE.