# 21436 byjoe@... on Feb. 9, 2007, 10:24 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> So my challenge is that, if either The Phoenix Development Society or
> The Roots and Wings Society is bigger than SSI-List one year from
> now, we get to scream loudly in your face "We're Number One" and if
> we fail you get to do the same to us.
>
> What about it? Can you people handle the heat?
Best,
- Joe
Joe Strout -- joe@...
# 21437 byLeon Neihouse on Feb. 9, 2007, 11:15 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>>
> Seems a bit silly to me, on several levels.
>
> Best,
> - Joe
>
around. I want to see something happen and I thought this might start a
dialogue on a different take towards financing a private space program.
If you have a better approach, I am all ears.
Leon
# 21438 byjoe@... on Feb. 9, 2007, 11:48 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> Agree, it is even more than a bit silly, but I am tired of just
> sitting around. I want to see something happen and I thought this
> might start a dialogue on a different take towards financing a
private
> space program.
>
> If you have a better approach, I am all ears.
- Write stories about space colonization (as Mike Combs has been
doing). Or, if you're artistic, make some good modern visualizations.
- If you have the means, produce a realistic movie or TV show about it.
- Support the nascent space tourism industry politically, perhaps
through a group like the SFF or NSS.
- Go to work for a company that's doing something, like Bigelow
Aerospace, XCOR, Virgin Galactic, Benson Space Company, or any of a
number of others.
- Buy the products of these companies, or if that's too much, at least
buy a flight on Zero-G.
- Volunteer to help with the X Prize Cup.
- Enter any of the Centennial Challenges currently or soon underway,
for example, the tether climber, or the autonomous regolith-digger.
Many of these could be done for a few thousand dollars or less. If
you're not of an engineering bent, find somebody who is (at your local
university perhaps) and sponsor them.
- Lobby to get space solar power the funding it deserves. Maybe set up
demonstrations of wireless power transmission (WPT), or build an
exhibit that can travel to museums around the country.
- Resurrect the work on mass drivers (how long has it been since
anyone's built one?), and see what can be done with modern materials
and electronics.
These are just off the top of my head, but I think pretty much any of
them is more likely to be successful, and far more closely tied to what
progress we make toward space colonization, than setting up
"sustainable villages" on Earth. And note that if any of the terms I
use above aren't familiar to you, then you should start by doing
further background reading, because that would mean you're missing out
on a lot of giant shoulders you could be standing on.
I understand your frustration at how slow progress seems to be on a
day-to-day scale -- I think we all feel that. However, I'm much
encouraged lately, because if you take a step back and look at a
timescale of years or decades, we're making more progress now than we
have since the end of Apollo. (And more of the right KIND of progress
since, well, ever.) It's an exciting time, and the difficult chicken-
and-egg problem is finally starting to crack. Above are ways that you
can help push, if you really want to help out.
Best,
- Joe
Joe Strout -- joe@...
# 21439 byLeon Neihouse on Feb. 9, 2007, 12:50 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> These are just off the top of my head, but I think pretty much any of
> them is more likely to be successful, and far more closely tied to what
> progress we make toward space colonization, than setting up
> "sustainable villages" on Earth.
Above are ways that you
> can help push, if you really want to help out.
>
> Best,
> - Joe
>
To follow up on my letter of October '95 in which I requested proposals for global goals, I believe one worthy of consideration is solving all the world's energy problems for all time. Here is the plan:
One thousand solar-powered satellites in geosynchronous orbit (a home for former President Bush's thousand points of light) collect solar energy for subsequent transmission to receiving stations on Earth. The power is then either sent over high-voltage transmission lines, or used in the electrolysis of water to create hydrogen. This is
then fed into a piping distribution network for use in generating electricity in fuel cells, on in combustion to support transportation, home heating, etc.
Uranium is continuously being washed from land to be held in a state of suspended equilibrium. This powerful energy source can be retrieved from the sea and formed into a blanket surrounding a series of controlled micro-thermonuclear explosions. The neutron flux thereby created causes the dissociation of water into hydrogen and oxygen, and the transmutation of U-238 into plutonium. The hydrogen so generated is distributed as described above and the plutonium is used as fuel for commercial submarine nuclear power plants operating in a state of neutral buoyancy from offshore submerged concrete cocoons.
Slingatrons - first cousins of particle accelerators, magnetically levitated bullet trains and coil gun electromagnetic launchers - can be used not only to propel the high-level radioactive waste generated by nuclear power plant operation into a sun or moon
trajectory, but also to launch material into low Earth orbit for solar-powered satellite construction.
The satellite and nuclear power sources operate as central power stations; these are supplemented by local power stations using sources as geothermal plants, low-head hydro-plants, biomass plants, windmill farms, solar cell farms, etc.
To prepare for an asteroid impact comparable to the one thought to have exterminated the dinosaurs, the satellite receiving stations and concrete cocoons are placed at locations with a high survivability potential. Wireless power transmission from the submarine nuclear power plants to the satellite receiving stations will ensure
survival of the human race, along with its scientific and technical foundation, during the long interval of darkness.
All of the above elements, including concrete cocoons, have been discussed in reputable scientific and technical publications. The only unique concept is their union in a systematic framework. The Dirigo (deer-uh-go, meaning "I lead" and the motto of the State of Maine ) Energy Institute has been incorporated to coordinate the implementation
of this approach.
The processes described can continue until the sun expands into a red giant. When this happens - about 4 billion to 5 billion years from now - the Earth will be completely engulfed and all of its surface water vaporized. Life as we know it will then be extinguished and this will all become moot.
Leon J. Neihouse
Bath, Maine
The Dirigo Energy Institute died a long time ago because of a lack of interest but I still subscribe to all of the above. I am 67 years old and, as my retirement project, I am making a final attempt to get something started. Actually I am promoting the particular method that starts with sustainable villages, rather than some of the ideas you suggested above, because another motivation of mine is to test Relativistic Organizational Design before I die. This was the title of the final paper (also in the Files under ROD of the Yahoo Group I mentioned above) I wrote for my final MBA course. I am sorry for that earlier post to this group but I just wanted to stir things up a bit and see what might happen. Best regards, Leon Neihouse
# 21440 byLeon Neihouse on Feb. 11, 2007, 6:05 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
(Snip)
>
> These are just off the top of my head, but I think pretty much any of
> them is more likely to be successful, and far more closely tied to what
> progress we make toward space colonization, than setting up
> "sustainable villages" on Earth.
(Snip)
> Best,
> - Joe
Joe, I believe you are overlooking a possible source of support for getting into space.
I started in the seventies as a member of Space Studies Institute, was a First Millennial Foundation member in the nineties, and even purchased the book on space settlements offered by PERMANENT, Mark Prado's initiative.
Through all of this I have been taking the path less traveled. This started with J.J.'s BLUFF or THE THEORY OF BUSINESS RELATIVITY a book I wrote in 1980 available for free download from the Files of the Yahoo Group above. I have been more or less promoting this approach since then.
I am now 67 years old and on the verge of retirement. Based on the longevity of my family (dad 84 at his death, mother 90 at her death, and my oldest sibling 83 and still going strong) I could well have 20 more good years and, given the progress of aging technology, maybe even 30 or 40. As my retirement project, I am taking a slightly different approach. If you look at it closely, I believe many will perhaps come to the same conclusion that I have a whole host of people on this planet are much, much more interested in creating sustainable communities on Earth than in space. I am trying to get the interest of this crowd but keeping space in the forefront by modeling the communities with reference to the ultimate sustainable community a space settlement.
Another reason I am promoting the particular method of sustainable villages is that it gives me a chance to set up Local Chapters that I can use to test Relativistic Organizational Design, the title of the final paper (also in the Files under ROD of the Yahoo Group I mentioned above) I wrote for my final MBA course. This paper expresses The Theory of Business Relativity in a quantitative manner and includes ideas from the professional business and management journals current in the 1980-1983 time frame.
I cordially invite each and every member of this group to also join mine (there is no conflict of interest we are both trying to get the human race into space) and watch from the sidelines to see if I succeed or fall on my face.
I should mention, Joe, that I appreciate your private comment that I should perhaps investigate the cryonics movement of which Ted Williams, the former baseball player, is a participant, and stick around for the 1,000 years I projected to see if the project meets with success. This is an interesting proposition and if Charles Howell III, the golfer, would join I would be sorely tempted. You have to be a sports fanatic, which I am, to understand this but I would consider it an honor to be resurrected along with the Splendid Splinter and the One Iron.
I will end this post by saying that I have decided to emulate the electron and follow the path of least resistance. I maintain that the easiest road to the stars is through sustainable communities on Earth. The related business network that would be created would tithe earnings to a nonprofit organization, which would start by directing five per cent towards space colonization with the Space Studies Institute being one obvious recipient of this funding. This five per cent would eventually grow to at least fifty per cent, and perhaps even more if so determined by the voting membership of the nonprofit organization.
Best regards,
Leon Neihouse
# 21441 byJolly Roger on Feb. 11, 2007, 5:19 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>
> - If you have the means, produce a realistic movie or TV show about
it.
Harlan Ellison's 1973 "The Starlost" TV show. It starred the actor who
played Dave Bowman in "2001: A Space Odyssey".
http://www.snowcrest.net/fox/star.html
Ellison's earthship "Ark" carried 1/2 million.
In the short term, we need to encourage space tourism and the building
of space hotels. Those hotels can later be developed into spaceships.
# 21442 byXenophile on Feb. 18, 2007, 9:07 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
I say go for it. If you succeed, we're all a lot closer to the High
Frontier in our lifetimes. If you fail, well, at least we'll know
what not to do.
started to write one. Actually, I started a few, and as usual none of
them have gone much of anywhere. Which doesn't make it a bad idea, it
just makes me the wrong guy to do it.
I've also done some work on space sports.
# 21443 byCombs, Mike on Feb. 19, 2007, 8:30 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> I've been, for some time, intrigued by the TV show idea. I even
> started to write one. Actually, I started a few, and as usual none of
> them have gone much of anywhere. Which doesn't make it a bad idea, it
> just makes me the wrong guy to do it.
Regards,
Mike Combs
# 21444 byGARY ANSORGE on Feb. 19, 2007, 9:26 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Mike:
While it's true most SciFi stories deal with wars for
acquisition of resources, the elements that make for a
really good story deal with HUMAN conflict, as in who
did what, with which, to whom,,,
literraly or figurarively, for a very long time,
whether in space or on earth.
Gary 7
> [mailto:ssi_list@... On
> Behalf Of Xenophile
>
> > I've been, for some time, intrigued by the TV show
> idea. I even
> > started to write one. Actually, I started a few,
> and as usual none of
> > them have gone much of anywhere. Which doesn't
> make it a bad idea, it
> > just makes me the wrong guy to do it.
>
> One difficulty with writing High Frontier-type
> fiction is that orbital
> habitats make such excellent homes and solve so many
> problems. For
> example, there's little logic in waging a war of
> conquest to take over
> someone else's land if it's less expensive to simply
> manufacture
> additional land for yourself. How much science
> fiction plotting is
> driven by wars which, even if only implicitly,
> involve the desire to
> acquire someone else's territory?
>
> I gravitate more to "man against the elements"
> myself, but even that has
> challenges. The threats which most people find
> scary about space like
> radiation, explosive decompression, and meteoroids
> can be easily
> engineered for. You can't easily threaten
> protagonists with stuff like
> this without assuming the design engineers were
> incompetent idiots,
> which is a bit dishonest.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike Combs
>
The fish are biting.
# 21445 byXenophile on Feb. 19, 2007, 10:04 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> One difficulty with writing High Frontier-type fiction is that
> orbital habitats make such excellent homes and solve so many
> problems. For example, there's little logic in waging a war of
> conquest to take over someone else's land if it's less expensive to
> simply manufacture additional land for yourself. How much science
> fiction plotting is driven by wars which, even if only implicitly,
> involve the desire to acquire someone else's territory?
format. The conflict is more of the the "why do you and Dad always
treat me like a baby?" or "why would a girl say she crazy about me and
them just dump me like that?" variety. I guess a cop show could be
done. About the only way to justify a war theme with habitats is to
have fanatics who want to destroy all infidels. Fanatics who don't
want to acquire the infidels' land, but simply want the infidels to die.
> I gravitate more to "man against the elements" myself, but even that
> has challenges. The threats which most people find scary about
> space like radiation, explosive decompression, and meteoroids can be
> easily engineered for. You can't easily threaten protagonists with
> stuff like this without assuming the design engineers were
> incompetent idiots, which is a bit dishonest.
A bit, yes. I was going to have an episode where the family sees a
movie that does exactly that (meteor destroys habitat), and the little
girl is scared that it might happen for real. Then she learns how
easy it is to engineer for such things, and that indeed the habitat
designers have done exactly that.
# 21446 byCombs, Mike on Feb. 19, 2007, 10:17 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> I was going to have an episode where the family sees a
> movie that does exactly that (meteor destroys habitat), and the little
> girl is scared that it might happen for real. Then she learns how
> easy it is to engineer for such things, and that indeed the habitat
> designers have done exactly that.
And how rare a really large meteoroid is. Granted, a meteoroid the size of a car would get through the shielding. But something like that might only happen once every million years.
Mike Combs
# 21447 byGARY ANSORGE on Feb. 19, 2007, 10:23 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Sitcoms are one way to deal with that, but Buffy The
Vamp slayer dealt with far more than comedy and ran
for 7 years. Why? because, while the top level of the
story dealt with fighting monsters, the really
interesting story was about the interaction of the
characters with each other, Buffy with Angel, the gay
female stars, the longing of one male for the girls,
etc.
I.E., who, did what, to whom,,,
the Cylons(more monsters) and the real story is about
Starbuck vs Adamas son, Adamas relationship with the
Pres, etc.
I expect stories of space habitats will be of interest
when we can write about the conflicts involved in
establishing the colonies in the first place, the
politics involved, the human stupidity of those
opposed to such massive infrastrusture investment, who
made money, who lost it, who married whom to cement
what deal, etc.
People make the stories interesting. Gimicks (nearby
novas, or a wandering planet or dark star, aliens
mining our OORT cloud, etc)are the hook.
Gary 7
>
> > One difficulty with writing High Frontier-type
> fiction is that
> > orbital habitats make such excellent homes and
> solve so many
> > problems. For example, there's little logic in
> waging a war of
> > conquest to take over someone else's land if it's
> less expensive to
> > simply manufacture additional land for yourself.
> How much science
> > fiction plotting is driven by wars which, even if
> only implicitly,
> > involve the desire to acquire someone else's
> territory?
>
> Right. Which is one of the reasons I went for the
> family sitcom
> format. The conflict is more of the the "why do you
> and Dad always
> treat me like a baby?" or "why would a girl say she
> crazy about me and
> them just dump me like that?" variety. I guess a
> cop show could be
> done. About the only way to justify a war theme
> with habitats is to
> have fanatics who want to destroy all infidels.
> Fanatics who don't
> want to acquire the infidels' land, but simply want
> the infidels to die.
>
> > I gravitate more to "man against the elements"
> myself, but even that
> > has challenges. The threats which most people
> find scary about
> > space like radiation, explosive decompression, and
> meteoroids can be
> > easily engineered for. You can't easily threaten
> protagonists with
> > stuff like this without assuming the design
> engineers were
> > incompetent idiots, which is a bit dishonest.
>
> A bit, yes. I was going to have an episode where
> the family sees a
> movie that does exactly that (meteor destroys
> habitat), and the little
> girl is scared that it might happen for real. Then
> she learns how
> easy it is to engineer for such things, and that
> indeed the habitat
> designers have done exactly that.
>
The fish are biting.
# 21448 byGARY ANSORGE on Feb. 19, 2007, 10:30 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Sports is a great idea. Consider the difficulty of
throwing a ball in a rotating colony. Coriolis forces
would make objects move off center, riding a motor
cycle in one direction(with arc of rotation) would
result in an increase of perceived "gravity", movement
in the opposite direction would reduce perceived
acceleration, then try turning your bike at 100 kph at
right angles to the direction of rotation. VERY
complicated,,,
# 21449 byRaven on Feb. 19, 2007, 1:35 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Gary,
> acquisition of resources, the elements that make for a
> really good story deal with HUMAN conflict, as in who
> did what, with which, to whom,,,
> Humans will still be screwing someone, either
> literraly or figurarively, for a very long time,
> whether in space or on earth.
Such as in http://hjem.get2net.dk/JonLennartBecksEgoPage/Fugitive.htm ?
It's about a murderer who hides in a space habitat laid out as a natural
preserve.
I also wrote a story of a suicide, where a man uses a CME to kill
himself. I haven't weblished that one because I'm not sure how realistic it
is, such as if a person can receive a deadly dose within half an hour and
die within one during a really bad flare, and become so thoroughly
sterilized that his corpse doesn't even start to rot, or how long it might
take for the storm to die down and make it safe to travel in unshielded
ships and flitters again.
Jon Lennart Beck.
# 21450 byRaven on Feb. 19, 2007, 1:37 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Mike,
> challenges. The threats which most people find scary about space
> like radiation, explosive decompression, and meteoroids can be easil
> engineered for. You can't easily threaten protagonists with stuff like
> this without assuming the design engineers were incompetent idiots,
> which is a bit dishonest.
You could assume the design engineers were underfunded. Let's say the
financial backer (fatcat industrialist TM) has a luxurious interorbital ship
with full shielding and rotational gravity, while his prospecting crew go
out in a thin-walled plimsoller to fetch back a roid which is too
irregular to be hauled home by robotics. In the case of a CME headed
their way they must rely on turning their ship so that the engine comes
between them and the oncoming blast, but the mission profile and the
hardware to support it have been shaved so thin that only a few days
of coasting with an idle engine will endanger them.
Jon Lennart Beck.
# 21451 byRaven on Feb. 19, 2007, 2:32 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Xenophile,
> have fanatics who want to destroy all infidels. Fanatics who don't
> want to acquire the infidels' land, but simply want the infidels to die.
One potential plot (and one that eventually definitely needs be adressed
in real life, if space habitation ever comes into fruition) is a terrorist
sect, whether someone like al Qaeda or like Aum Shinrikyo, trying to use an
asteroid to wipe out an Earth city or area. Imagine a sixty meter asteroid
falling into Chesapeake Bay at twenty km/s. The space environment will most
likely attract highly trained and bright people, and will also present
psychological challenges that may drive some such individuals into the
malevolent madness of Shoko Asahara. Same people who were diarrhea-brained
enough to buy their guru's bottled bath water to drink also produced nerve
gas. Some sort of armed vigilance - not massively numerous, but highly
capable in terms of acceleration, delta-v and detection power - needs be put
in place, monitoring all incoming cargoes and taking action if a cargo
enters uncomfortably close to an impact trajectory.
I suppose a James Bond movie could be made with such a plot. Bond
infiltrates a suspected such group heading out to the Belt to bring back a
rock, shags the two sexiest women aboard (one heroine, one villainess), and
then he and the heroine sabotage the mass-driver engine just as it is about
to make its hard push into an impact trajectory (thereby saving themselves,
as otherwise the Space Guard, alerted by Bond, would attack the rock and the
mass-driver before it could achieve its intended path). :-)
Jon Lennart Beck.
# 21452 byDon Davis on Feb. 21, 2007, 10:40 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
The emphasis of an effort to publicize the space colonization
deserves special attention. What widely felt Great Needs are there
which might find an outlet within what this topic offers?
article on the topic at:
http://www.donaldedavis.com/2007NEW/SPACEMIGRATION.html
My own short term scenario for a way to try to generate excitement
about the idea would be to create an immersive simulation in fulldome
video, a format increasingly popular with new planetariums. I would
go for a straightforward grandeur invoking approach, with Hollywood
cliche's left behind along with much of their traditional highly
expensive studio based infrastructure. The CGI modeling and
compositing with actors would make for an exciting project, if anyone
knows any funding sources (I 'estimate' a million dollar budget.) ;-).
Don
# 21453 byCombs, Mike on Feb. 22, 2007, 8:44 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
>http://www.donalded avis.com/ 2007NEW/SPACEMIG RATION.html
An excellent article overall, but I did have a question about one remark:
"There were early concerns expressed about the idea of microwave beams pointing at Earth and wandering astray and associated environmental harm from microwaves, although so long as the antennae was collecting the microwave beam practically none would actually reach the ground. There would be some dead insects and birds to periodically clean up, however."
What do you base this on? My understanding of the DOE studies of the microwave beam was that it would not so much as even disturb the behavior of either birds or insects.
Mark Prado has some on-line info on this topic here: http://permanent.com/p-sps-bm.htm
> My own short term scenario for a way to try to generate excitement
> about the idea would be to create an immersive simulation in fulldome
> video, a format increasingly popular with new planetariums.
Something I've dreamed about more than once.
There is going to be a new IMAX format movie called "Postcards From the Future", but it's going to be more along the lines of constructing moonbases and launching expeditions to Mars: http://www.postcardsfromthefuture.net/
Mike Combs
# 21454 byMitchell James on Feb. 22, 2007, 7:04 p.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
"Postcards From the Future" will debut at ISDC 2007.
Mitchell James
# 21455 byDon Davis on Feb. 23, 2007, 8:46 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
> An excellent article overall, but I did have a question about one
> remark:
>
> "There were early concerns expressed about the idea of microwave beams
> pointing at Earth and wandering astray and associated environmental harm
> from microwaves, although so long as the antennae was collecting the
> microwave beam practically none would actually reach the ground. There
> would be some dead insects and birds to periodically clean up, however."
>
> What do you base this on?
a point of showing the ground under the rectenna was safe for grazing,
etc. I assumed this implied the airspace above the array was less safe.
> Mark Prado has some on-line info on this topic here:
> http://permanent.com/p-sps-bm.htm
I am now reassured enough to remove the reference to dead birds from
the article. Thanks!
Don
# 21456 byDave Handwerk on Aug. 7, 2007, 7:44 a.m.
Member since 2022-08-22
Hi Leon,
however that your education was not in Astronautics.
I have a very similar frustration to those you
mentioned. I am only slightly younger than you, and
see my chances of exploring distant star systems
rapidly fading. There is the possibility of "cryonic"
preservation should I die in just the right
circumstances, but there is no guarantee that I would
ever re-animate.
Anyway I just wanted to offer my encouragement and to
say that if you should perchance happen into some
major financial resource, I have a lot of good
technical ideas that may shorten the time frame to our
journey to the stars at a velocity of 0.6c. If we
start pretty soon, I think we can still get there.
Now as for the money, I've been thinking this out too.
The very first thing is to put together a business
plan to interest even one other person who has the
money and sees the opportunity, to get started. To
get to the stars, we first have to get to space, and
like you I think it should start with Space Solar
Power Satellites (SSPSs). I see the most critical
part of the puzzle the ability to launch material to
orbit cheaply, presumably using Electromagnetic Launch
Systems (EMLSs). But to do so cheaply, we need to do
a lot of launches. I am attaching a pair of abstracts
for papers that I am writing. These might be of some
interest to you.
Anyway keep up the good work.
Dave Handwerk