Hi all, you may find this article interesting if you are interested in
thrusters that require no on board fuel. Good progress has been made.
Best Wishes
Paul
> Hi all, you may find this article interesting if you are interested in
> thrusters that require no on board fuel. Good progress has been made.
>
> http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/ and read at pages 14-16.
more specific URL?
Or, tell us about this technology. If it has no onboard fuel, how does
it work? As far as I know, there are only three ways to move:
1. Throw stuff out the back
2. Push against something
3. Be pushed by something
Which one is this using, and what's the something?
Thanks,
- Joe
Joe Strout -- joe@...
Strout Custom Solutions
I can't find any way to read by page number there. Can you provide a
more specific URL? I found it: http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx My first thought was that maybe it qualified as a type of photon drive, but now I'm not sure what the heck it is.
Mike Combs
>
> > Hi all, you may find this article interesting if you are interested in
> > thrusters that require no on board fuel. Good progress has been made.
> >
> > http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/ and read at pages 14-16.
>
> I can't find any way to read by page number there. Can you provide a
> more specific URL?
>
> Or, tell us about this technology. If it has no onboard fuel, how does
> it work? As far as I know, there are only three ways to move:
>
> 1. Throw stuff out the back
> 2. Push against something
> 3. Be pushed by something
>
> Which one is this using, and what's the something?
>
> Thanks,
> - Joe
>
> --
> Joe Strout -- joe@...
> Strout Custom Solutions
>
Sorry about that, try the web site and then:
Click on "digital versions" right hand side of the page,
select 01 May 2007
click on "submit"
> I found it:
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
> My first thought was that maybe it qualified as a type of photon
> drive, but now I'm not sure what the heck it is.
Ah yes, I remember reading about this a couple years ago. It's a weird
beast, to be sure, and I'm staying in the "skeptical" camp for now.
Still, it sounds like they're making progress and doing the right
things, so I'll wish them the best. Even if their theory is all wrong
and it ultimately turns out to be just a photon drive, it may still be
useful.
Cheers,
- Joe
Joe Strout -- joe@...
Strout Custom Solutions
Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a way to
convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not likely
to be any better than a solar sail,,,
interaction between micro waves and the solar magnetic
field, or something.
I'm skeptical!
GAry 7
>
> > I found it:
>
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
Hi,
But then again all my work on a Space Gas Station
would be for naught...
This sort of reminds me of an article by Dr.Alexander
Bolonkin, 3 or 4 or 5 or so years ago in Jour. of
Brit. Interplanetary Soc. (JBIS) on using light for
space propulsion. In his article however, he didn't
settle on a single reflection, as a Solar-Sail might
enjoy. But he went on to describe a system of mirrors
and lenses that would reflect the light beam back and
forth 10s of thousands of times, extracting all of
it's energy. Admittedly, it's not my field, but
having a bachelor's in Physics, I could just barely
follow along. I wonder if this microwave device is
reflecting microwaves off of something out there, or
down here? A very high-Q copper cone, could indicate
one end of such a system???
Dave Handwerk
> Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
> impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a way
> to
> convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
> another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not likely
> to be any better than a solar sail,,,
>
> On the other hand maybe he's stumbled upon some
> interaction between micro waves and the solar
> magnetic
> field, or something.
>
> I'm skeptical!
>
> GAry 7
>
> > > I found it:
> >
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
"The crucial part, as he explained, is that it is a
relativistic effect that arises because the waves
being reflected at the two ends of the conical cavity
into which the microwaves are injected have different
effective velocities, and thus different frames of
reference, and that a closed microwave wave guide is
an open system in terms of relativity. "
that are being reflected in the chamber are
preferentially pushing on one side of the chamber.
Bizarre.
Ed
> Hi,
>
> I'm skeptical too. It would be neat if it were
> true.
> But then again all my work on a Space Gas Station
> would be for naught...
>
> This sort of reminds me of an article by
> Dr.Alexander
> Bolonkin, 3 or 4 or 5 or so years ago in Jour. of
> Brit. Interplanetary Soc. (JBIS) on using light for
> space propulsion. In his article however, he didn't
> settle on a single reflection, as a Solar-Sail might
> enjoy. But he went on to describe a system of
> mirrors
> and lenses that would reflect the light beam back
> and
> forth 10s of thousands of times, extracting all of
> it's energy. Admittedly, it's not my field, but
> having a bachelor's in Physics, I could just barely
> follow along. I wonder if this microwave device is
> reflecting microwaves off of something out there, or
> down here? A very high-Q copper cone, could
> indicate
> one end of such a system???
>
> Dave Handwerk
>
> --- GARY ANSORGE dead_naked_drummer@...
>
> > Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
> > impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a
> way
> > to
> > convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
> > another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not
> likely
> > to be any better than a solar sail,,,
> >
> > On the other hand maybe he's stumbled upon some
> > interaction between micro waves and the solar
> > magnetic
> > field, or something.
> >
> > I'm skeptical!
> >
> > GAry 7
> >
> > > On May 15, 2007, at 18:07 UTC, Combs, Mike
> > >
> > > > I found it:
> > >
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
Different effective velocities? What the heck does
that mean? How can ANY electromagnetic energy have
"different" velocities when C is the determining
velocity of ALL electromagnetic radiation in this
universe?
Gary 7
> "The crucial part, as he explained, is that it is a
> relativistic effect that arises because the waves
> being reflected at the two ends of the conical
> cavity
> into which the microwaves are injected have
> different
> effective velocities, and thus different frames of
> reference, and that a closed microwave wave guide is
> an open system in terms of relativity. "
>
> As I understand this, it means that the microwaves
> that are being reflected in the chamber are
> preferentially pushing on one side of the chamber.
> Bizarre.
>
> Ed
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm skeptical too. It would be neat if it were
> > true.
> > But then again all my work on a Space Gas Station
> > would be for naught...
> >
> > This sort of reminds me of an article by
> > Dr.Alexander
> > Bolonkin, 3 or 4 or 5 or so years ago in Jour. of
> > Brit. Interplanetary Soc. (JBIS) on using light
> for
> > space propulsion. In his article however, he
> didn't
> > settle on a single reflection, as a Solar-Sail
> might
> > enjoy. But he went on to describe a system of
> > mirrors
> > and lenses that would reflect the light beam back
> > and
> > forth 10s of thousands of times, extracting all of
> > it's energy. Admittedly, it's not my field, but
> > having a bachelor's in Physics, I could just
> barely
> > follow along. I wonder if this microwave device
> is
> > reflecting microwaves off of something out there,
> or
> > down here? A very high-Q copper cone, could
> > indicate
> > one end of such a system???
> >
> > Dave Handwerk
> >
> > --- GARY ANSORGE dead_naked_drummer@...
> >
> > > Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
> > > impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a
> > way
> > > to
> > > convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
> > > another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not
> > likely
> > > to be any better than a solar sail,,,
> > >
> > > On the other hand maybe he's stumbled upon some
> > > interaction between micro waves and the solar
> > > magnetic
> > > field, or something.
> > >
> > > I'm skeptical!
> > >
> > > GAry 7
> > >
> > > > On May 15, 2007, at 18:07 UTC, Combs, Mike
> > > >
> > > > > I found it:
> > > >
> > >
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, Mike.
> > > >
> > > > > My first thought was that maybe it qualified
> > as
> > > a
> > > > type of photon
> > > > > drive, but now I'm not sure what the heck
> it
> > > is.
> > > >
> > > > Ah yes, I remember reading about this a couple
> > > years
> > > > ago. It's a weird
> > > > beast, to be sure, and I'm staying in the
> > > > "skeptical" camp for now.
> > > > Still, it sounds like they're making progress
> > and
> > > > doing the right
> > > > things, so I'll wish them the best. Even if
> > their
> > > > theory is all wrong
> > > > and it ultimately turns out to be just a
> photon
> > > > drive, it may still be
> > > > useful.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > - Joe
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Joe Strout -- joe@...
> > > > Strout Custom Solutions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > arrives.
> > >
> > wherever you're surfing.
> >
> Get a sneak peak at messages with a handy
>
TV dinner still cooling?
What's eally interesting is that there are so many
money people willing to invest in this, but Dr.
Bussard has such a hard time getting funding for his
WB 7 and WB 8 fusion reactor models. Next to
anti-matter, fusion
is the real freedom factor for space craft.
> Hi,
>
> I'm skeptical too. It would be neat if it were
> true.
> But then again all my work on a Space Gas Station
> would be for naught...
>
> This sort of reminds me of an article by
> Dr.Alexander
> Bolonkin, 3 or 4 or 5 or so years ago in Jour. of
> Brit. Interplanetary Soc. (JBIS) on using light for
> space propulsion. In his article however, he didn't
> settle on a single reflection, as a Solar-Sail might
> enjoy. But he went on to describe a system of
> mirrors
> and lenses that would reflect the light beam back
> and
> forth 10s of thousands of times, extracting all of
> it's energy. Admittedly, it's not my field, but
> having a bachelor's in Physics, I could just barely
> follow along. I wonder if this microwave device is
> reflecting microwaves off of something out there, or
> down here? A very high-Q copper cone, could
> indicate
> one end of such a system???
>
> Dave Handwerk
>
> --- GARY ANSORGE dead_naked_drummer@...
>
> > Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
> > impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a
> way
> > to
> > convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
> > another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not
> likely
> > to be any better than a solar sail,,,
> >
> > On the other hand maybe he's stumbled upon some
> > interaction between micro waves and the solar
> > magnetic
> > field, or something.
> >
> > I'm skeptical!
> >
> > GAry 7
> >
> > > On May 15, 2007, at 18:07 UTC, Combs, Mike
> > >
> > > > I found it:
> > >
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
I think a space gas station will be really useful, the Emdrive will
not replace all other forms of thusters. Like renewable energy, there
will be many different forms of propulsion, in my view.
site (only because I'm a bit lasey in searching).
As I believe I said last year, I have seen the results of 450 tests
and they agree with the math. I have also had the math checked (as it
is mostley beyond me) and it is correct. The latest round of tests
also conform to the math.
This drive, particularly if we can get it to work extreamly high Q
values, will be quite useful. However the thrust does fall off very
rapidly at about 0.6 to 0.7 c.
Best Wishes
Paul
--- In ssi_list@... GARY ANSORGE
>
> What's eally interesting is that there are so many
> money people willing to invest in this, but Dr.
> Bussard has such a hard time getting funding for his
> WB 7 and WB 8 fusion reactor models. Next to
> anti-matter, fusion
> is the real freedom factor for space craft.
>
> GAry 7
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm skeptical too. It would be neat if it were
> > true.
> > But then again all my work on a Space Gas Station
> > would be for naught...
> >
> > This sort of reminds me of an article by
> > Dr.Alexander
> > Bolonkin, 3 or 4 or 5 or so years ago in Jour. of
> > Brit. Interplanetary Soc. (JBIS) on using light for
> > space propulsion. In his article however, he didn't
> > settle on a single reflection, as a Solar-Sail might
> > enjoy. But he went on to describe a system of
> > mirrors
> > and lenses that would reflect the light beam back
> > and
> > forth 10s of thousands of times, extracting all of
> > it's energy. Admittedly, it's not my field, but
> > having a bachelor's in Physics, I could just barely
> > follow along. I wonder if this microwave device is
> > reflecting microwaves off of something out there, or
> > down here? A very high-Q copper cone, could
> > indicate
> > one end of such a system???
> >
> > Dave Handwerk
> >
> > --- GARY ANSORGE
> >
> > > Ummm, photon drive. Highest theoretical specific
> > > impulse possible but unless he's figuered out a
> > way
> > > to
> > > convert one form of energy(from solar cells) to
> > > another with nearly 100% efficiency, it's not
> > likely
> > > to be any better than a solar sail,,,
> > >
> > > On the other hand maybe he's stumbled upon some
> > > interaction between micro waves and the solar
> > > magnetic
> > > field, or something.
> > >
> > > I'm skeptical!
> > >
> > > GAry 7
> > >
> > > > On May 15, 2007, at 18:07 UTC, Combs, Mike
> > > >
> > > > > I found it:
> > > >
> > >
http://www.eurekamagazine.co.uk/article/9657/No-propellant-drive-prepares-for-space-and-beyond.aspx
While trying to be cautiously skeptical, I can't help but wonder if the microwave emitters of a SPS could (perhaps temporarily) be reconfigured as EM drives. It sure would be sweet if one could build a SPS in LEO and, without even fueling it, have it power its way up to GEO on its own.
Mike Combs
From what I understand of EM drive, the microwaves
don't actually leave the inside of the device, which
IIRC is a truncated cone with both ends caped.
Different applications, different microwave emitters.
However, if the EM drive just requires electrical
power as an input, and an SPS is producing electrical
power, then there might be some possibilities.
device by a long tether, then power generated at the
SPS could be sent down the tether, thus pushing
against the earth's magnetic field in order to gain
altitude. I think David Brin wrote a story called
Tank Farm or something like that, which used this
tether method for station keeping.
Ed
> From what I understand of EM drive, the microwaves
> don't actually leave the inside of the device, which
> IIRC is a truncated cone with both ends caped.
> Different applications, different microwave emitters.
Understood.IthinkwhatIwaswonderingaboutwasifonecouldstillusethesamemagnetrons,evenifonehadtoplacetheconicalresonatorsonfortheEMdrive,and
then removethemforuseaspowertransmitters.Oristherelationshipmoreintimatethanthat?
> Of course, if one had a SPS connected to some other
> device by a long tether, then power generated at the
> SPS could be sent down the tether, thus pushing
> against the earth's magnetic field in order to gain
> altitude. I think David Brin wrote a story called
> Tank Farm or something like that, which used this
> tether method for station keeping.
Oh, yes, I remember that story very well. You know, it's surprising that I've never before heard this proposal. The Earth's magnetosphere might be fairly weak at GEO altitude, but it seems like it ought to save considerable fuel at the first parts of the trip.
Regards,
Mike Combs