colony infrastructure Forum: Spacesettlers
Thread: colony infrastructure
--- In spacesettlers@y..., Ian Woollard wrote:
> John Frazer wrote:
>
> >>From Ed Minchau 18 Mar 2001
> >
> >> In spacesettlers@y..., Ian Woollard wrote:
> >>
> >>> All habitats have to solve (roughly most important first
although they are
> >>> all vitally important)
> >>> ...
> >>> - 'weather' patterns
> >>
> >> Weather considerations become important on a large-scale habitat
like an
> >> O'Neill cylinder, Bernal Sphere, Rama, etc., but chances are
that much
> >> smaller habitats will be built first, in the simplest design
possible -
> >> something like Space Island is likely to have tightly-
controlled "weather"
> >> in its hydroponics areas.
> >
> > I've always doubted the idea of anything like actual "weather" in
something
> > as small as even an Island 3. Yes, on Earth, clouds will form at
about 600+
> > meters altitude, but that is in a much more varied environment.
As you go up
> > on Earth, you get closer to cold space. As you go up in an Island
3, you get
> > to the point where sunlight from 3 windows converges in the
center...
>
> Hmm. Hadn't consider the effect of that on weather systems.
Interesting.
>
> I don't think anyone knows what the weather will do in one of these
> systems. Arguably, the weather may be more intense. For one thing,
> unlike on earth the coriolis force and thermals tend to reinforce
> each other. On earth, coriolis force and gravity is at 90 degrees
> to each other, in an O'Neill they can be nearly aligned.
>
> So I believe that fire on an O'Neill would be very frightening
> indeed. On the earth you only have convection which removes the
> heat, on an O'Neill the heat goes round and round in circuits
> sucking in air along the sides and increasing the circulation
> as it goes. Scary thought.
>
> And if it melts through the floor, (the melting point of aluminium
> is quite low), it MAY act like a blast furnace as the air gets
sucked
> into space. Probably a double hull with CFCs pumped between the
walls
> at high pressure would be a very wise move, if fire burns through
the
> floor it extinguishes itself. No doubt trace element control
systems can
> remove the CFCs and reuse them.
axis, air at the central core would be fairly thin... twice as high
as Denver... any air in the central core would also be highly
energetic, as lower energy molecules would drift "down" toward the
circumference. Also during daylight hours (assuming an O'Neill-type
3 mirror method) the central core would be lit from at least two
directions simultaneously - very hot indeed.
Sounds like an interesting project for meteorology students.
>
> > There's just not enough chaos in the system for weather in
something as
> > small as a 7km by 30km cylinder. It was mentioned that the only
way to form
> > rain, would be to inject dust, and cool the interior down so
droplets are
> > stable. Cold, clammy, damp, depressing, and dull. Some "weather".
>
> Do you have a cite for that?
>
> > Sorry, but the "sky" won't be blue.
>
Plenty of chaos involved with that much atmosphere and energy. Even
much smaller enclosed atmospheres can form clouds inside, as the
Vehicle Assembly Building has from time to time.
>
> > On the other hand, sports will be as
> > nothing ever herd of down here. (I like Niven &
Pournell's "Spirals" and the
> > idea of hang-gliding/skydiving from the center)
>
> It's going to be hot up there in between those three mirrors!
> Humans probably won't be able to fly except at night I guess.
>
> >>> - water purification and sewage treatment
> >>> - food production
> >>
> >> Humidity control, air recycling, water purification and sewage
> >> treatment, and food production should all be handled by the same
> >> system, with wastes constantly being recycled in the hydroponics
> >> area; as much as possible, a fully-contained ecosystem.
> >
> > I just like to point out that completely closed ELS isn't really
neccessary
> > -for the same reason that the claim of Zubrin that "Only Mars has
everything
> > a new branch of human civilization needs, in one spot" is false:
> > By the time you've got infrastructure to build one of these
colonies -or
> > even to plant a colony or sizeable base on Mars- you've got an
established,
> > evolved supply system capable of building a space colony. If the
recyclers
> > can't reclaim 100% of something, we'll import a few hundred kilos
a year to
> > make up for the losses.
>
> I agree.
>
I agree, too; I said _as much as possible_. At the very minimum 50%
of a permanent colony's needs should come from recycled sources. A
hydroponic farm the size of an average bathroom can provide enough
food, filtered water, and oxygen for one person.
A complete ecosystem may not be necessary, but a partial ecosystem
would make resupply more efficient.
> > The factory which built the colony is right there, a few
meters/sec away,
> > with most of what's left over from an NEA.
> > Sure, we'll want to get as close as possible, but too often I
read that one
> > of the things we need to develop before we can hope to live in
space is 100%
> > CELSS.
> > For similar reason, trash control isn't too much of a problem;
These people
> > take rocks apart (practically to the molecular level) to make
homes & farms.
> > What is unreclaimable garbage to their systems?
>
> No shelter for garbage from the smelter! ;-)
> --
I am thinking more about the first orbital colony big enough to have
artificial gravity, most likely about 500m in circumference. The
nearby Geode station will be processing all sorts of things in
microgravity, sure, but the biological waste products of a ring
station's users are more likely to be used to continue the lifecycle
in the artificial ecosystem. The larger the habitat, the more robust
the ecosystem becomes; once bootstrapped, it takes far fewer resupply
missions than a system which relys solely on ground resupply.
:) ed