What can we do?

> >
> > >Difficult ? Yes. Impossible ? No.
> >
> > Ok. If not impossible, then why hasn't it occurred? What is "industry"
> > waiting for?
> >
>It is already happening. Space communications has been
>profitable for over 40 years, for example.

But does nothing to increase commercial activity in space beyond it's own
uses. That is my point. Yes, the market for satellites is a good, positive
first step, but alone does very little to "bootstrap" space ventures.

> > >Given the fact that it is already
> > >profitable. It is simply a matter of how fast the market
> > >will expand.
> >
> > Already profitable? I disagree. Both tourists (there have only been two in
> > America - there was also a Russian woman who responded to a radio
> > "contest"/advertisement and a Japanese reporter who hated his experience -
>
>Non, wrong. The "Russian woman" you are thinking of was
>British, her names is Helen Sharman.

Ahh, that explains the english accent. I thought she was an immigrant.

>And she was not a tourist
>at all. When her corporate sponsors fell through the
>cost of her flight was paid by a Russian bank.
>
> > both went to MIR) paid US $20M to take one seat on the shuttle and go to
> > the ISS. $40M doesn't even come close to profitability. How much did each
>
>The $20 M is a lot mroe than the cost of flying the Soyuz
>mission. Hence it made a profit.

And it did not cost less than $20M to launch those two people to MIR on the
Soyuz.

>The ISS time is an interesting question. At one point NASA
>saidf they would charge the Russians for the ISS time.
>But that seems to have been an idle threat from Dan Goldin.
>
>Now that Dan is gone, NASA seems happy to accept the visitors for free.

I am not talking about paying for time spent on the space station. I am
talking about the cost of it's construction.

>Of course your argument is about the cost of the Space Station
>time. Well, we do not actually need any ISS time at all,
>you can fly on a Soyuz and return without visiting ISS,
>but it would be a short uncomfortable trip.
>
>The ISS represents "free" infrastructue for now.

Free! I'm sorry? Free? That's crazy. There is nothing free about the ISS.

>It will be interesting to see if NASA can ever figure
>out the delta cost of having an extra visitor on board.
>
>Could an entire space station be paid for by fee paying
>passengers ? Quite possibly. Not today perhaps, but
>"real soon now" :-)
>
> > shuttle launch cost? How much did it cost for the shuttle to be readied
> > between flights? How much did the ISS cost? Etc, etc. Not even close to
> > demonstrating profitability. Merely a theory extrapolated from Earth-based
> > adventure tourism.
> >
>No Shuttle cost was associated with the two toursit missions.

Sorry Soyuz, not shuttle. My mistake. And there was a great deal of cost
associated with launching the soyuz on those two missions.

> > Services? For what? There's nothing there but a poorly planned, poorly
> > deployed, over-priced space station (that would take eons to pay for via
> > tourist industry), a bunch of debris, and satellites, mostly
> > communications. What service do you believe will open up the high frontier?
> >
>Tourism for one. ISS has been paid for,

No it hasn't. It's in the hole for that amount. That's like saying an
investor gave me $5M for an idea, I spent that money on the idea and so now
the idea is paid for. I still owe that money. The idea isn't paid for until
I make enough money from that idea to pay back the original investment. The
idea isn't turning a profit until I make enough money from that idea to pay
back more than the original investment.

>Good luck :-)
>
>A serious suggestion for you, go talk to your local office
>of SCORE (Service Corp of Retired Executives). They will
>be happy to help you write a business plan for free, and
>they will tell you precisely the numbers you need to put in.
>They are a free service, funded by the US Small Business Administration.

Excellent idea, thanks.

> > So, you're saying tourism will bootstrap space industry using existing
> > launch systems (US space shuttle) and existing technologies? Please
> explain
> > how tourism can be anything more than a footnote in the early history of
> > space exploration using the US space shuttle.
> >
>Where did I mention the Space Shuttle ?
>You can ground the fleet so far as I am concerned and it
>would not hurt space development one bit.
>
>The Shuttle is completely irrelevant, we can do it all
>much more cheaply with Russian hardware.

More cheaply, yes. Turn a profit using Soyuz? Sorry, I don't believe that
at all.

Jack