Ants and Entrepreneurs

--- Ravenart@... wrote:
> How do you know the current situtation is better? Have you put different
> type of civilization to the practical test?

There have been no controlled experiments but what we have seen from history
does show that libertarian like civilizations don't tend to be work very well.
Which could explain why no libertarian state has existed although a few have
come close.

> The reason I am suporting anarchy's idea of ordering society by contract (as
> outlied by Lysannder Sponner's essay in Civil War period) is that with vast
> distances and unlimited resources in space, there is no way to create
> centeralized state to make sure everybody behave and to collect taxes to
> support such programs.

True. But that still doesn't make having a state impossible. It's quite
possible for any organisation to control it's own habitats and collect taxes
from people who live on them to support such programs. Even with unlimited
resources there are still things that the free market just isn't any good at
providing which would have to be provided by some sort of government thus
making anarchy unfeasible for any serious space colonisation effort. Even if
it is anarchy in the first place anarchy is always unstable turning into some
other form of government. Often dictatorship but democracies will pop up.

> Also, since you think having a centralized state is best for security I would

> like to ask you: what is the fair price in dollar terms? If the state don't
> agree with you and they have weapon and you don't how can you ensure that you

> will pay only fair price and nothing more?

In reality it's pretty hard to do that no matter whether you're dealing with a
state or a company. Both are just as likely to rip you off. The way to deal
with that is to add regulation to prevent. With government it's done by having
seperate departments that don't answer to the departments they're regulating
and with companies it's done by government regulating using a regulator that
isn't controlled by industry.

> How do you put limits on their power?

Having a good constitution with a bill of rights doesn't seem to matter at all
when it comes to keeping freedom so you need to have other ways. The best one
is probably education but that could be a bit of a problem considering what
most people are like. We haven't fully solved it although it's a lot better
under a system like our current one then under any fantasy system.
Libertarianism which you seem to like is basically just our current system with
the safeguards removed.

> That is the question of justice and fairness. The rest of objections you
rant
> on about are merely techincal details which can be changed anytime in ongoing

> experiment in ordered life in just society.

I would be willing to say the reason you are saying they are merely technical
details is because you can't answer them and don't want to admit it.

> It seems to me that people who put this much heat in objections are merely
> motived by fear of change and of experiment which may have unknown results.

Fear of change can be a good thing. Particulary if the change will have net
negative results (a change to a libertarian system would). As for the
experiment having unknown results. DUH, it's an experiment, you don't know
what results you'll get until you do it which no one has. Of course one can
predict.

> I know that it seems odd to find it in a list about settling space but people

> always have a mix of boldness and fears.

Fears of what your politcal system would be like if implemented are perfectly
founded.

> A better question is what ordered life will allow us to make changes, to make

> needed improvements in timely manner without infering with people's natural
> rights?

If anyone actually manages to find one I'd be very interested. Of course one
does have to realise that there are no 'natural' rights. Rights are merely
social constructs created because they are beneficial to society, in modern
society what is good for society is usually good for most of the people in it
which is what allows to keep existing.