Digest 718 - Hi Michael, & Population Control Policy Issues

> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2003 20:09:12 +1000
> From: Michael
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 713

> Do we need 20 line signature files?
> It takes up a lot of space.

Agreed - I try snipping ruthlessly, but it ain't easy.

> >The raw materials in space are mind boggling and do
> >not quite equate to Earth mode of thinking. Between
> >the moon and near earth asteroids, there is plenty of
> >metals to be had for construction and regolith for
> >shielding.
>
> The majority of the asteroids are not metal-based.
> How do you propose extracting and purifying the metals in a zero-G
environment?
>
> >I do not believe population control will be an issue.
>
> It is an issue now and we have an entire planet to use, so it would
> certainly be an issue for a much smaller space settlement.

Wahoo! Welcome to Spacesettlers, and I'm darn glad to meet ya! I've
been trying to start a thread on this topic for about three digests now,
with very little success. What sorts of issues are important to you in a
habitat sort of situation, particularly one that is approaching a population
crisis?

> An understanding of population dynamics in biological systems would help
to
> appreciate my point. I'm proposing an Autopoiesis model from space
> colonisation, not an Allopoiesis model. Perhaps, therein lies the
confusion.

Could you clarify these terms for me please?

> >Since one can purchase small bottles with brine shrimp and a bit
> >of other stuff in closed bottle that will survive for years
> That seems cruel.
> In zoos, when elephants "sway from side to side" it is because they are
> suffering from intense psychological distress caused by prolonged
> captivity. If we are going to take animals with us into space then we need
> to raise the issue of animal cruelty, by prolonged confinement.

In the case of the brine shrimp, I'm not sure I agree - the bit about
the elephants is interesting, but the term "confinement" is squishy. Is it
confinement if their 'enclosure' is larger than their natural range? Are
there confined elephants - at existing Zoos - that are NOT under confinement
stress? If so, how big are thier enclosures? Would sufficiently larger
enclosures still be cruel? Again, in the case of a brine shrimp - how much
space is too little space, and how do you tell?
And, cruelty aside, such enclosed ecosystems are stable for very long
periods without intervention - doesn't that bear out your opponents point
(all now snipped, what was the preceding bit? And who was the original
poster of the brine shrimp bottles?) that simple and / or artificial
ecosystems do not necesarily fail more quickly than large and / or natural
ones?

[Snip]

> >The materials in one asteroid (the largest ) are sufficient to make
> >orbital space colonies with ~150 times the surface area of the Earth in
> >usable real estate.
>
> 1 Ceres (the largest asteroid) makes up more mass than all the other
> asteroids combined and it is not metallic. Neither is 2 pallas, the 3rd
> largest asteroid.
>
> Assuming it was all metallic, and you on the inner surface of a cyclinder:
> to achieve 150 Earth surface areas you are talking about a hull less than
1
> metre thick and with a massive tensile strength. 1 metre is inadequate
> (unless it is made of rare-earth elements) to protect against cosmic
> radiation or hold in one atmospheric pressure.

These statements sure do put some teeth in the whole scaracity of
resources line of thought - thanks. Do you have sources? As an aside,
metals may actually be pretty poor radiation sheilds - hydrogen may be far,
far better. Wish I had a source for you on that; I seem to remember I came
across a mention of this for the "inflatible" ISS habitat module....

[Snip]

> >If you can look into the details I think you'll see where some of us
> >picked up our mindsets.
>
> I'm sure my biology degree, pro-terraforming and pro-venus views are
> sneaking through also :]

Terraforming is an interesting thought exercise, but maybe venus would
be too much trouble. You couldn't get plants to survive for a full Venusian
night without light - in fact AFAIK one of the big barriers to a lunar base
(until the discovery of the "Peak of Eternal Light" at 0E 86S) was getting
the plants to survive the two week long Lunar night. Other than that, Venus
is a very interesting problem, and perhaps easier than Mars - since the huge
reflector required to cool it could be used as a power station for further
Terraforming efforts. What would you do with all that Sulfur though?

> >but I've grown tired of the Mars crowd
>
> It's only just recently that NASA opened up an Astrobiology centre in the
> building next door, and started taking PhD students. The people there are
> very pro-mars and very anti-everything else. They ignore anything that
> disagrees with their current line of thought. It's very annoying.

True. But here, you'll get the O'Neillian religion. All of us hardcore
adherants agree that it's the best.

[Snip]

Take care
Michael

Welcome Michael. Hope you like what you see, and if not - then I hope
you will help us approach the issues in a new light. Later,

Joe