Don Davis article

But there is the rub,,,

our free society is based on (should i say it?) consumerism, which is marketed through sex, extreme-isms, etc. because many have nothing to hang their hats on except what images marketers conjure for them... not everyone mind you, I'm sure there are those in the bible belt that can thump ideology as good as any other sect.... :-))

Look what changed Japan (inc)...A very conservative group...all for the motherland or its incarnation, corp. Japan. After satellite TV, magazines, MTV etc. got into the heads over there, the social norm has started to fall apart. My personal feelings was that the TV show "Dallas" did in corp. exec in Japan...here they were higher level managers, living in mini apt etc. and the y see JR with his mansion and cars, and the poor Japanese executives started wondering why not THEM too?!!!

Same with the entrepreneur explosion in China and India...consumerism virus is biting them in the ass big time and social mores are a changing from the traditional.

If you can get a Buddhist monk to wear roller blades and a walkman...what else is possible ???

:-))

N Vietnam I think is (sadly) hilarious...after 50,000 American DIED and anywhere from 500,000-2,500,000 Vietnamese killed to defend communism...they are now hard core entrepreneur selling coffee beans, shrimp, timber and tourism like any patriotic capitalist.

Who lost the war but won the ideology conversion???

Even though we got our way in the end, it saddens me so many how to lose their lives and so much resources lost in the process. Just think of how many hospitals and lives could have benefited from air ambulances that the hueys destroyed in the conflict represented??? But then again, there would never have been the budget to provide these resources to the peace economy if there wasn't a war anyway. Such like today if we invested in tech to expand our earth boundaries taxing and spending on this goal as if it was a serious ideological war that our future depends on... {er, yea WE know it does :-) }

But such is our lot in life...to suffer.

At least, in 15 years or so, (or sooner if Wal-Mart or its incarnation have their way of things) the folks over there will have a kinder gentler and more consumer orientated religious philosophy.... which will be more tolerant of non approved brands :-))

Non alcoholic Jim Beam, Budweiser NA, and Mohamed 4 wheelers for the kiddies... align your prayer rug with a Sony mini gps, and a Motorola texting prayer cell phone with live video of your favorite prayer mosque crier.

It will come...and we will be better for it, in a generation. Those behind the scenes of Bush and Chaney administration be praised for their forethought and stick-to-it -ness in spite of current temptations to quit.

From: janet_baker76
To: spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, March 23, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: Don Davis article

You restated Davis' point well, but I still must say again, the fact
that "only" ten years later, North Vietnam took over South Vietnam
anyway, as if we had never spent all that money and could have used
it for the space program, is meaningless to "proof" as we know it.
An exhausted North Vietnam took over an exhausted South Vietnam, and
perhaps, perhaps, have abandoned their aggressive revolutionary road
in favor of a more peaceful, trader-ly one, because of it. Who is to
say that was not, for the future of the space program, better than
if they had come to the aid of Chile, or any other hot spot of the
era.

On the other hand, you could say that if we had not been there,
North Vietnam would have been strong enough to kick the Soviet
Union's tail and communism would have ended even sooner. (Remember
there was trouble between the SU and NV at some point?)

I don't think hindsite gives us truths where history is concerned.
We are still voicing opinions, as we were during the actual war,
controlled experiments being unfeasible, and it is better, it is
more productive to say so, or yes, we are screwed. (We don't have to
be, always. Grace abounds. The continuing existence of cities, in
spite of ourselves, proves that we do many things right, and that
space travel is possible, yes?)

Regarding Iraq, I would like to voice an opinion, too: that it is
such an ideological war that it seems if we would cease so many of
the activities that muslims object to and lead more virtuous, family
friendly lives, we could save a whole, whole lot of money and use it
on space projects. Iraq seems even more of a quagmire than Vietnam
did, and their terrorists seem even more dedicated than Vietnam's
Freedom Fighters, except their aim is (their version of) social
virtue rather than people's communes; your piggy bank is safe. Think
of how much government money could be saved if we women would just
dress more modestly and men would stop acting like horny dogs and
stick with the women they marry. How 'bout it? You in, Panama?

Jan

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, "Don Davis"
wrote:
>
> In making
> > that point, Davis said that we had squandered the money we could
> > have used to make a lunar settlement to delay the takeover of S.
> > Vietnam by the communists by only ten years. What I am
wondering
> > is, where does he get the idea that ten years is "only."
>
> My point was that We spent several times as much money on this
> unsuccesful intervention as on Apollo, a sucessful project. The
> economy was hurt by the war and by other decisions made then, and
> Lunar voyages suddenly seemed like a luxery we couldn't afford. In
> return for throwing away our ability to reach other worlds, perhaps
> forever, we delayed the communist takepver of Vietnam by only ten
> years. It was going to happen anyway, as soon as we decided to cut
our
> losses, as the French did before us. Communism, falling largely
due to
> the power of economic and mass access to information, is now
history
> except in Mainland China and a few other stragglers, and so is our
> ability to reach beyond Earth orbit-for now.
>
> I would rather have spent the money on Lunar and Mars
expeditions at
> that critical time when we had the opportunity, and later on space
> colonies, than on the Vietnam war. We would have gotten a lot more
for
> our money in the long term. Even now a NASA budget is burned up
> roughly every month in Iraq. We can afford to reach beyond Earth,
it
> is all a matter of priorities.
>
> Don
>