How to get to 10 trillion people in this solar system?

its quite common in "netspeak" to use shortcuts such as ppl and lvl.
I frequent another forum where the words level and people is used
frequently. for that reason its a habit to use lvl and ppl. Perhaps
this forum is a little bit too high brow for that. as far as
spelling, since my stoke I've had a lot more trouble with spelling.
for that reason i try to use the spell checker everytime, but when
im tired i dont always do so. when i do, occasionally i pick the
wrong spelling.

Personally i do see a vision of the future without politicians
as "misty eyed fools with visions of Utopia", although i would not
call them fools. Unless you figure a way of changing human nature,
human nature will be the same in space as it is on earth. that human
nature includes ppl who think its their right to impose their beliefs
and rules on others. As long as you denign that they will be there
too, you better have a way of stopping them. if you do, then you
become them.

I hope to build a future just as bright as some of the ones that are
mentioned by others, but I believe that you have to take into
account the lesser inteligent ppl and the politician. as long as you
do they can be melded into the same future.

Sir Issac Asmonov (spelling?) wrote a series of books based on the
beliefs that the smarter ppl would leave the earth with the belief
that the individual was paramount in all things. the result was a
seperation of the human race into two groups: earthers and spacers.
the spacers had all the near planets (in this fictional universe,
almost all stars had inhabital planets) and a stangle hold on space
ships as well as the space port. within a small number of decades the
spacers developed into a group of people that could not abide the
though of being around other people in person. it was bad enough that
when a person was murdered, they could not figure how anyone could
kill them, even though there was no locks or anything to keep a
person out. when they found the guilty party, that person was forced
into exile, not because they killed someone, since that was not a
crime there, but because they actually entered another person home.
that made them an aberant person. what im saying is that a trying to
put a system in place that only the top of the line ppl can go will
lead into trouble, and allowing all ppl to go means that there will
be some that will do things that are stupid. politicians will know
this and be more than willing to create laws to stop them, "for the
public safety". once this starts where will it end. the answer is
that if it starts it will not stop, but if the plans take into
account those, then there is no need. the ideas i pointed out as
examples were based on some of the discussion that has gone on here.

As far as the politicians haveing to lie to get a few women pregant,
i doubt it would ever have to be done. the only two reason that the
population has gone into decline, is the "american" desire to have
everything meaning that children have to be postponed (not forgotten
about) and the fact that there is no longer room to grow as it used
to be. give man more room, such as a new planet, or easy built space
station, and the population boom will be right back on track.

as far as the laws in texas, they are working. the feds could not
send Al Compone to jail for the millions of crimes he committed, but
the did manage to send him to jail for tax evasion, a compairatevely
minor crime. there was tons of evidence that the guy was guilty, but
it was all cercomstacial. the wire cutters was the only thing they
could get him on. in many of the cases, the rapist had gained entry
by cutting fences. he had no other reason for having them.

--- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Darren wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> Here is where you insert the sound effect of a huge sigh ..... Now,
to
> begin, I find it very hard to believe that you really missed my
jibe, so let
> me be blunt, when you are typing a message, it is only human to
make the odd
> mistake, hitting the wrong key or even having the computer
correcting you
> with the wrong word and you even have the right to deliberately
miss spell
> any word you want and I have the right to hold a low opinion of it,
for the
> record, you spell it as PEOPLE not PPL and LEVEL has two Es in it.
Having
> picked my nit.
>
> Most of the people (see how easy it is) on this list are not misty
eyed
> fools with visions of Utopia dancing in front of them, so I dont
know who
> you are trying to bring down to earth, so to speak but even if you
are
> really trying to correct somebody's overly optimistic vision, do
you really
> think that a messianic cult leader restricting the gene pool is a
realistic
> concern?
>
> As for digging into your back yard or even through your basement
floor and
> damaging the radiation shield? The dirt has to go somewhere, unless
a crazy
> resident is putting the stuff in the spare room, it is going to
make a pile
> in the garden. Realistically, it would be easier to have an inner
hull, then
> your anti-radiation mass, then an outer hull and few sensors to
tell you
> when there is a break. It is called good design but you dont need
to worry
> too much, most of the time a hole in the radiation shield will not
result in
> anybody dying fast, it takes a long time to get a lethal dose, to
qualify
> that consider, NASA seems to think that they can send a crew to
Mars without
> the kind of protection that a habitat would have.
>
> Yes, in a habitat, it would be possible for a small number to place
the
> entire habitat at risk, this is countered by good design, you put
the vital
> controls in secure places, you design failsafe systems. You build a
machine
> and that is what it is, a huge machine, that is not easy to put out
of
> order.
>
> Finally, if the police in Texas, really managed to arrest and jail
a man for
> carrying a pair of wire cutters and this was not overturned, it is
a sad
> indictment of the justice system there, if they could not gather the
> evidence to convict, then perhaps, he was innocent. Still I some
comfort
> in the thought that you have made some kind of mistake here, I
dont see how
> even in America this could be possible and if it is, Im thankful
that I
> dont live there.
>
> Darren
>
> From: Robert
> Reply-To:
> Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 07:51:15 -0000
> To:
> Subject: [spacesettlers] Re: How to get to 10 trillion people in
this solar
> system?
>
> --- In spacesettlers@yahoogroups.com, Darren wrote:
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > I have been following this thread for from the start and while and
> it seems
> > to me that you are being just a bit too negative.
>
> not really negative, but when ppl start bringing out the Utopian
> dreams, i feel a dose of the darker side should show up.
> >
> > Maybe the ppl you have populated your habitats with are not as
> smart as the
> > people I would prefer in mine but you would have to be really dumb
> to dig in
> > your back yard, they when you hit the thick metal hull bring in
the
> power
> > tools and cut a hole into it and then pull out the explosives to
> blast
> > through the rock.
>
> so your planning on having a high IQ as a requisite to living there.
> remember that 100 is the average. when you have a certain percentage
> of ppl with higher IQ's, there are going to be those with lower.
even
> then you have the problem with ppl with high IQ, but low lvl of
> common sense.
>
> something from my past might demonstrate what I'm referring too. i
> was in the air force, and at one base i worked in close quarters
with
> several former crew chiefs. these guys had gone to school to learn
> about aerodynamics. after they made comments about my lack of common
> sense and suggested i was not that smart, i pulled out an old junior
> high science project idea. i made a bet with one of them that i
could
> make a table tennis ball (ping pong) stay up inside a funnel. i won
a
> five dollar bet using hydrodynamics which is a close cousin of
> aerodynamic. its the same principle that keeps aircraft in the air,
> but he could not understand it. a few minutes later, he won a 10
> dollar bet with another expert in aerodynamic using the same thing.
> just because someone is trained in it does not mean that they will
> understand it.
>
> >Or perhaps you are using a different design, Mr ppl digs
> > in his yard and after a few metres of dirt hits concrete or
> sintercrete or
> > fused Luna slag or whatever they are using for bulk mass and keeps
> digging
> > (while his neighbours ignore him and the radiation sensors fail to
> note any
> > increase in count) and when he hits the metal hull pulls out the
> power
> > tools. A magic hole in the radiation shield will not kill
everybody
> in
> > seconds, except of course in the most rare of circumstances, now
> ppl might
> > not notice somebody making a breach in you radiation shield but
> people would
> > and they would stop it from happening.
>
> my understanding is that they would used pulverized slag as
radiation
> shield. since he is doing this inside his house, his neighbors would
> not notice anything right away. by the time the radiation detectors
> could notice it, and localize it to the house, it might be too late
> to keep ppl from receiving a lethal dose. it might take weeks for
> them to die, but the damage is already done
> >
> > Now for your automatic doors, once again it seems that ppl are not
> very
> > bright or maybe just very slow,
>
> there have been many stories of ppl that blocked fire doors from
> closing for one reason or another and causing a lot more deaths that
> would have been done if they had not block the doors. the space
doors
> would be the same.
>
> any rocks big enough to cause rapid
> > decompression and heading for your habitat should be noticed long
> before
> > they hit, smaller rocks would make holes so small that it would
> take days,
> > weeks or months to be a problem, your house will not need an
> automatic door
> > to close and turn each dwelling into a mini space ship.
>
> the problem would not be a single rock, it would be a dust cloud,
one
> that may or may not be seen and if it were seen, might not be
> expected to do much damage. then there are the accidents, such as a
> ship losing its engines as it approaches or the engine gets stuck on
> when it should not be on. the list of risks is long. few of them
will
> happen often, but you can ignore them. there has to be laws that
will
> be there just in case. for the most part few of them would be
notice.
> example in Texas there is a law about carrying a pair of wire
cutters
> in your pocket. this steams from the time that ppl would do this
> would mostly be cutting farmers fences so they could drive their
> cattle across rather than take them around. the law is still on the
> books and could send many a telephone repairman, power line
> repairman, or electrician to jail. no one pays any attention to it,
> but if some one ever uses it to do harm, they would find that law
> still has teeth. i remember reading about a rapist, that they could
> not catch with sufficient evidence to send him to jail for his
crime.
> then they caught him with wire cutters. i believe he is still
serving
> his sentence, for concealed wire cutters.
> >
> > As for your cult leader being a mega father with hundreds of
> children,
> > really? How many are his and how many said to be his?...
>
> according to the stories in the papers, he ran all the possible
> fathers out of the church and off the property before the children
> were sired.
>
> ...Unless we are again
> > talking about some strange difference between ppl and people, I
> dont know
> > that this is much or a worry, maybe a cult leader could manage to
> father a
> > huge number of children but unless this habitat has a population
of
> just a
> > few hundred, this will not be something to bother with, how many
> cults with
> > only a few hundred followers (be they ppl or people) are going to
> be able to
> > afford to build a habitat?
> >
> a habitat of 100,000 ppl would mean 50000 couples. considering that
> they would be basically replacing themselves (with their children)
> every 35 years, there would be about 1428 couples getting married
> every year. if this cult leader was in charge (one stories suggest
> that one of his own daughters had his grandchild), he might be
> attempting to create what he believed was a god ordered superior
race
> by having his children marry. its been done before. on earth it
would
> have little impact due to the size of the population. the result of
> course would be children with defective genes.
>
> > Im sorry, all of your points are valid but only in the sense of
> being
> > possible in the extreme but they are not really a big worry, at
> lest not
> > until we have a large population of ppl building their own
habitats.
>
> the thing is that all the points I've made have occurred on earth,
> where they would do little damage. in space a small number could
> easily jeperdise the whole. while i do believe that there the space
> station could and will be the future of man, i have trouble seeing
> it as Utopian dream that others have.
> >
> > I have been a member of this list almost from the very start, even
> if not a
> > very vocal one, when I first joined I had many discussions with
> Lucio of
> > what it would be like living in an Island Three and he convinced
me
> that it
> > beat planets hands down (salutations Lucio), in one discussion I
> told him
> > that I would do just about anything to be able to live in a
> habitat, even
> > down to shovelling excrement it thats what it took but I dont
> think I
> > would want to live in your habitat Robert, a place where it is
> policy to lie
> > to the population, just to make a few extra women pregnant and you
> use
> > draconian laws rather than educate people about basics of living
in
> a
> > habitat, all for their own good of course. Still, I dont think I
> have too
> > much to worry about, being a level headed person and not a lvl
> headed ppl.
> >
> > Darren
> >
> i would love to be able to see the future as a Utopian paradise, but
> to paraphrase a well know DJ "where ever humans go, there humans
> are." until you can change human nature you will have to deal with
> the fact that the future will be ran by humans with the same nature
> that we have. just look at the politicians and tell me that they
> don't lie to ppl "for their own good", and where the leaders would
> come up with criteria for immigration that would support their
> beliefs and make their own power base that much stronger.
>
> i love the dream of a star trek like future, but until you take
> humans as we know them out of the picture, your going to have to
deal